D-Link Forums
The Graveyard - Products No Longer Supported => D-Link Storage => DNS-321 => Topic started by: jb33zy on March 29, 2009, 04:18:45 PM
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Is anyone doing anything interesting to back this unit up? I am using mirroring which gives me some comfort, however nothing like my Windows 2003 server (which I had to retire) with shadow copies did. I'm thinking of just biting the bullet and attaching an external USB drive to my laptop and once a week doing a copy... very very lame! I wish the 321 could do some sort of external backup.
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Don't get too comfortable with mirroring, it's not a backup, as you will find out the first time you (or someone else) "accidently" delete a file.
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I think that's what this post is about! I have mirroring but that only protects from hardware failure. I mention shadow copies... did you read the post?
I see you have mention of this in your sig. Do you feel like you are on a mission to warn everyone about the limitations of RAID 1? If that makes you feel important by all means keep up the good work!
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Further question on backup -- realizing that the 321 is not a backup system per se, can the system be used with traditional backup software such as SmartSync Pro to perform regular backup sessions.. If so then you would have the data in 3 places -- on your original PC, and on the two drives in the 321. Does this make sense?
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jb33zy - how about you read so more and this time look to see the number of people who don't understand the true purpose of RAID1, those who are complaining because they had RAID1 and still lost their data - my mission is to educate them.
cdkone - let's look at backup in general.
Traditionally backups have been done to removable media - tape, diskette, etc. - and backups are done to multiple sets of media used in some form of rotation - for example, grandfather, father, son - if anything happens to one set of media, there are two other, slightly older backups that can be restored, there may be some data loss, but you can control that through the selection of the rotation used.
If the backup drive fails, you can replace the drive and insert the media and get access to the backup.
Now - you can use the DNS-321 for backup purposes, in what is known as disk-to-disk or d2d - BUT - there are risks involved. First you can create three backup media sets and use a grandfather, father, son rotation - but - since they are on the same physical disk - what happens if there is a disk failure - you lose all of your backups. If you use RAID1 that will minimize the possibility of losing all of the backup data.
It is not at all unusual in the corporate world to see NAS servers, with RAID, being used as D2D targets.
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I back it up to a simple external drive on my PC once a week. I use xcopy and tell it to only back up the newest files. Seems to work great except the first time you run it, it takes a long time.
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How about you read some more you annoying twit? Who the heck are you to tell people what to do and what to read? Who deamed you responsible for giving out advice on RAID 1? I mentioned I had mirroring and am looking for a good backup solution for this system. IT_DOESNT_HAVE_ONE!
This system needs what Windows 2003 has: shadow copies. Samba has a version of it as well that I think would work here. If they could implement this the system would step up in quality 10-fold.
jb33zy - how about you read so more and this time look to see the number of people who don't understand the true purpose of RAID1, those who are complaining because they had RAID1 and still lost their data - my mission is to educate them.
cdkone - let's look at backup in general.
Traditionally backups have been done to removable media - tape, diskette, etc. - and backups are done to multiple sets of media used in some form of rotation - for example, grandfather, father, son - if anything happens to one set of media, there are two other, slightly older backups that can be restored, there may be some data loss, but you can control that through the selection of the rotation used.
If the backup drive fails, you can replace the drive and insert the media and get access to the backup.
Now - you can use the DNS-321 for backup purposes, in what is known as disk-to-disk or d2d - BUT - there are risks involved. First you can create three backup media sets and use a grandfather, father, son rotation - but - since they are on the same physical disk - what happens if there is a disk failure - you lose all of your backups. If you use RAID1 that will minimize the possibility of losing all of the backup data.
It is not at all unusual in the corporate world to see NAS servers, with RAID, being used as D2D targets.
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Aren't you a little confused? Shadow copies aren't backup either.
Two questions for you ...
1 - with Server 2003, where are the shadow copies stored?
2 - what happens to the shadow copy if the drive fails?
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How about you read some more you annoying twit? Who the heck are you to tell people what to do and what to read? Who deamed you responsible for giving out advice on RAID 1? I mentioned I had mirroring and am looking for a good backup solution for this system. IT_DOESNT_HAVE_ONE!
This system needs what Windows 2003 has: shadow copies. Samba has a version of it as well that I think would work here. If they could implement this the system would step up in quality 10-fold.
Well, it seems that (from: http://www.samba.org/samba/docs/man/Samba-HOWTO-Collection/VFS.html#id2644800)
to implement the (Microsoft proprietary) "shadow copy" in Samba you need:
- kernel support for Logical Volume Management (LVM)
- and a file system that supports freezing and buffering writes to it until the
file system is thawed again, such as XFS.
Neither of these packages are currently supported on the DNS-321 at this time and might
be large resource drains on the limited RAM and CPU in the DNS-321.
Furthermore, there is a warning about the intent of shadow copy in the samba docs;
which might give you cause to re-think your preference for using shadow copy as
a "good backup solution" for your data.
Warning
THIS IS NOT A BACKUP, ARCHIVAL, OR VERSION CONTROL SOLUTION!
With Samba or Windows servers, shadow_copy is designed to be an end-user tool only. It does not replace or enhance your backup and archival solutions and should in no way be considered as such. Additionally, if you need version control, implement a version control system. You have been warned.
Under the hood, the DNS-321, runs Linux. There are a few, quite elegant, snapshot style,
backup techniques available for Linux systems. You might want to look at rsnapshot (www.rsnapshot.org) for starters, that could give you the level of comfort you are looking for.
Finally, if you really expect to be taken seriously on this forum, try to refrain from the
flaming name calling. You are more likely to get help, if your posts are respectful.
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I'm not th eleast bit confused about shadow copies and what they are for. It would be a nice feature. With mirroring you have another safe guard. They are all safe guards.
True backup would be some kind of offsite migration, but I don't see that happening. At least with some form of shadow copies and mirroring most people would consider that fairly sufficient for their needs.
I've just started backing up files to a USB drive. I'd like to see a USB port on these things that is for USB drives and a scheduler on the system to migrate to the USB drive. Every device I see with one of these USB ports it's for copying from the USB to the NAS! Exactly the opposite of what I'm after.
Aren't you a little confused? Shadow copies aren't backup either.
Two questions for you ...
1 - with Server 2003, where are the shadow copies stored?
2 - what happens to the shadow copy if the drive fails?
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Look at my ORIGINAL POST. I simply asked if anyone was doing anything interesting with regards to backup. In my original post I make it pretty clear that I'm doing mirroring (to protect from hardware failure) but am looking for a real back up solution or something. The only worthwhile response on this whole post is from the member who mentions XCOPY. The rest of these posts are just spouting non-sense that has nothing to do with what this thread is about. I never once said "Mirroring gives me complete confidence" or "shadow copies give me complete confidence" did I?
Like I said, I am just going to backup to a USB drive attached to my laptop. It's not a very good solution but it does give me some protection from corruption, deletion, etc. I find it strange these devices don't have good backup solutions. When I went looking for my home NAS device I really wasn't sure which one to get, none really mention backups but I assumed there had to be some way to do them. At least the HP Home Media server seems to have them, from scheduling backups to external drives to built-in shadow copies and mirroring capabilities. It's $400.00 though as apposed to this device which I got for $120.00. Overrall I'm happy with it though.
Finally, if you really expect to be taken seriously on this forum, try to refrain from the
flaming name calling. You are more likely to get help, if your posts are respectful.
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...but am looking for a real back up solution or something...
Alright, if you can describe what your requirements would be for a "real
backup solution", maybe someone could suggest a strategy.
Looking at the I/O capabilities of the DNS-321, it only has the SATA and Ethernet.
Since the SATA is being used for RAID1, that leaves the Ethernet for backup.
For any backup, you are going to have to have another device with Ethernet to
transfer your data. Since, D-Link did not provide a way to push the data to another
device, the other device needs to pull the data off the DNS-321 via Ethernet.
From my perspective, any successful backup solution has to be compatable with
thoes limitation of the DNS-321, and your USB drive connected to a laptop seem to
work within the DNS-321's limitations. Why do you think your USB/laptop backup
is "not a very good solution"?
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It isn't a good solution because it requires manual intervention. I have to manually connect the drive to my laptop, then manually copy files. It's lame. I want set it and forget it and I realize that I got the wrong device for that.
Like I said though I'm happy with it and am not going to return it. In fact I just ordered the DSM-520 (or whatever it's called) to extend to my TV. I would like to see this issue addressed with other NAS devices or future upgrades. Possibly a feature you could subscribe to some online backup storage and then log into the NAS, set up your account information, select what gets migrated to the service and at what time intervals and let it take over from there.
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Possibly a feature you could subscribe to some online backup storage and then log into the NAS, set up your account information, select what gets migrated to the service and at what time intervals and let it take over from there.
This is an interesting idea to me. Which online backup storage services would you
consider viable for this type of function?
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So, I have share setup on my main desktop that the DNS-321 copies/etc stuff over to using sync toys 2.0. I do it manually since I also use the DNS-321's NFS feature for a bunch of VMs. However, I suppose if you wanted to automate it you could use the (I think) CLI portion of sync toys and schedule the tasks.
However, the drawback to that is AFAIK sync toys will basically mirror what is on the drive already. So - as mentioned if something is nuked from the DNS-321, it'll also get nuked on the DNS. HOWEVER, if you were to just do it weekly, or every other day you should have plenty of time to resolve the issue via your last backup and drive on.
Also, another reason to not rely on mirroring is due to the chassis AND its OS. I've had expensive NASs in the past that lost my data (around 4 times). Hence me backing up my backups. :D
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This is an interesting idea to me. Which online backup storage services would you
consider viable for this type of function?
iBackup.com comes to mind but there are plenty of others.
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iBackup.com comes to mind but there are plenty of others.
Well, iBackup.com is definitely viable service. iBackup.com uses rsync and stunnel for
encryption, for Linux clients. Both packages work fine on the DNS-321. However, it
does seem a bit pricey (~$1/GB), especially since this charge is a monthly fee and the
DNS-321 is a lower budget (sub $100) device.
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Two thoughts on backup.
One, don't mirror the drives, get a much larger second drive and write .bat files (mon.bat, tue.bat, wed.bat, etc) that uses "robocopy .... /mir /r:0 /w:0" and schedule them on a pc to mirror the root of the first drive to folders mon, tue, wed for each day of the week on the second drive. So, if your first drive is around 160gb and your second drive is 1TB, you can get 5 daily backups if not a few weekly ones too. That's assuming the 160gb will hold you for a couple years (when you will probably upgrade anyways).
Second, the units are cheap enough even with 1TB mirrored drives so you buy another and again write .bat files as noted above with "robocopy .... /mir /r:0 /w:0" to mirror the first DNS to the second one in folders.
I purchased them strictly for backup purposes for my clients (backup of server flat files), so the .bat files with nightly robocopy (I've had problems with synctoy, the gui robocopy, locking up with dll errors so I like robocopy) to specific folders is the process I use.
Karen's replicator is a free tool that works very well, too:
http://www.karenware.com/powertools/ptreplicator.asp
Automatically backup files, directories, even entire drives! Karen's Replicator copies selected files from one drive/folder to another. Source and Destination folders can reside anywhere on your network.
Everyone has different needs and different drive size requirements, I understand that.
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May not be interesting or high tech, but I back up my DNS-323 (user data that is) over the ethernet to 8-mm tape. I picked up a used Sony TSL-SA500C 4-tape autochanger on e-bay which is connected to a spare windows PC I used to use as a server. I hated to have the server sucking electricity 24x7, so I replaced it with the DNS-321. I power up the server on weekends and let it take a full backup of the DNS-323. Takes a while since it only moves about 450 MB per minute, but there are lots of hours during the night to do this. IN case of a DNS-323 failure, or accidental file deletion, I usually have a recent copy of the data somewhere on tape.
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I knew other people were wondering this as well. What does D-Link think about this lack of backup feature? I suppose their official statement would be the DNS-321 is supposed to be your backup device, but most I think are probably not using it in this fashion but a combination of a backup device and file server. In which case, it needs to be backed up.
Like I said earlier I'm just attaching a USB drive to my desktop and copying when I feel like doing a backup. I would love a "set-it-and-forget-it" setup though.
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I knew other people were wondering this as well. What does D-Link think about this lack of backup feature?
Can you name a NAS - either SOHO or business class that has a "backup feature"?
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I knew other people were wondering this as well. What does D-Link think about this lack of backup feature? I suppose their official statement would be the DNS-321 is supposed to be your backup device, but most I think are probably not using it in this fashion but a combination of a backup device and file server. In which case, it needs to be backed up.
Agreed. While I use a DNS-323, it can apply equally to the DNS-321. My 323 came with the Memeo Backup software - which I tried and actually used for a while. It monitors specific directories on my PC and makes sure that any changes are replicated to the DNS-323 when they occur... Thus you always have a backup of critical files on the DNS device. Thats all well and good and serves a useful purpose for backing up data on your PC. IT doesn't address backups where the DNS is the primary storage (Media files, pictures, etc.). I actually even abandoned use of Memeo, as it accesses the DNS backup directories it uses via a samba share and it apparently accesses those areas frequently enough that the DNS will not sleep the hard drives - even when the monitord directories/files on the PC are not being altered. So in the end, I do daily automated incremental backups of PC's to the Backup share on the NAS, and then weekly I do a backup of the NAS to tape. Some may argue its overkill, but so be it.
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Can you name a NAS - either SOHO or business class that has a "backup feature"?
Yes, Buffalo Linkstation NAS (I use these too):
http://www.buffalotech.com/products/network-storage/linkstation/linkstation-pro/
........the LinkStation Pro can accommodate additional external USB hard drives for expanded networked storage or as backup targets.
Also, Synology
http://www.synology.com/enu/products/CS407e/index.php
Network Backup is designed for you to back up data from CS407e to another Synology product that also supports Network Backup function or rsync-compatible server.
and the higher end Synology NAS boxes offer this (am considering these as well):
Disk Station is available with Disk Station Manager v2.1 firmware, which offers mail server capability via 1-click installation Mail Station add-on (web mail, SMTP, POP3, and IMAP). In addition to storage, user, and privilege management capabilities, firmware provides multilingual support and RAID management. Included Surveillance Station 2 supports 139 IP camera models as well as audio streaming, auto-discovery, and AJAX technology, while File Station 2 simplifies web-based file operations with its capabilities.
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The Buffalo devices are quite nice actaully. A little more money but quite nice.
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We have been buying these NASs to be used AS backups to our clients networks. We have the device setup in a LAN network and then install DirSync (http://www.archersoft.com) on their server. Every night at midnight, the DirSync software copies everything from the server, as well as every other windows PC on the network, to the DNS-321 under a "Backup" folder - each computer has it's own folder on the NAS. We use DirSync is because it has been the best backup/directory syncing software we found, and I tested at least 2 dozen of them myself. There are lots of free ones you can use, like Cobian Backup, that do the same thing, but not quite as well. The best 2 features about these types of softwares are (In my opinion)...
1) You can set it to only backup what has changed, so the first backup takes hours, but every backup after that could take minutes.
2) DirSync keeps Deleted Files for a configurable amount of time, as well as any number of different "versions" of backed up files. With a 1TB drive in the DNS-321, I set the software to keep Deleted Files for 30 days and up to 10 different versions of files. This means that if I have a file on my computer and it's backed up to the NAS, if I delete it from my computer, I have up to 30 days to go back and get it off of the NAS. And if I have files that change daily (like my Outlook .PST file), it will keep the last 10 different versions at all times. So if my Outlook file gets corrupted, I have up to 9 other versions to go back to.
Like I said, we use these NASs as the backup themselves, but the same thing applies to anyone using these to store data that wants a backup of the data. The backup has to be somewhere else, like another DNS-321, or a USB Drive attached to a PC on the network, or even another PC on the network itself. But if you install DirSync (or any other backup/syncing) programs on any PC on the network, you can schedule toe backup to run daily, weekly, or whenever you want.
I have a few clients that have 2 DNS-321's, each with a single 1TB drive in each one. I don't put 2 hard drives in them because 1TB is enough space for now, and mirroring doesn't help (for the cost) because these are a backup to data that is already on the computers anyway. But they each have 2 NASs that are configured identically, and they switch them out once a week. Some of them take one NAS home with them each week for an offsite backup, and some lock them in the office in fire-proof safe that is fire-proof for hours (not for a few minutes like cheap safes).
Anyway, if anyone has any questions, feel free to let me know.
Josh
PC Werks
http://www.mypcwerks.com