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[Maverick494]

I have clearwire and as much as I would love to blame this on them, I can't.  I have two separate modems that are connected to the same tower.  On the one that is connected to the DGL-4500 I get ping times to www.yahoo.com from 95-300MS, with the average about 180-190 MS.  On the direct connect modem to the same computer I get ping times of 70-90 MS with the average being 85ms.  Jitter is about 30 to 100 on the DGL-4500 connection and 8-15 on the direct connect.

I just don't get this.  Why would this supposed gaming router cause such issues with my ping time?  Yea I know clearwire isn't the best for gaming anyway, but that is what I can afford at the moment and even with a 90 ms ping to most servers I could do ok.

I have tried everything I can think of in the settings to fix this issue.  Anyone have any ideas?  I am on the verge of spending $150 on the cisco E3000.

[FurryNutz]

Do these clearwire modems over internal routers? I worked with one couple of years ago and can't remember if they did or not. If they do, DSL sees the same issue. Your dealing with 2 routers and 2 translations and processing has to be done more than it should be. To resolve this, and use all the features of the 4500, you have to bridge the clear wire modem to the 4500. Most times you need to call the ISP and have them help you do this. This in effect turns off the modems internal router and just acts as a stand alone modem only, handing off the public ip address that your probably not seeing on the 4500. It begins with a 2 digit number and not 192.169.#.#. If this is the case and they can bridge the modem, you should be good to go.  If you can't get it bridged, see if the modem has a DMZ and put the 4500 on the modems DMZ. At any rate, like you said wireless internet is not the best for gaming. It's possible that you might see the same issue with other routers. Let us know how it goes.

[Maverick494]

Ok never mind if you read my last reply.  I found a guide to bridging (semi) this particular modem.  Hopefully that will help pings.  

Update:  Pings are still 180-300.

[FurryNutz]

What firmware version is currently loaded on the 4500? I presume cables are good between modem and router? You are testing a wired PC to the 4500 and not wireless? Whats SEMI mean for the modem?

[Maverick494]

Clearwire modems cannot be fully bridged at this time, all you can do is http://austexvoip.com/clear-wimax/clear-wimax-modem-semi-bridge-setup. The cables are all good.  Firmware version 1.23NA (probably shouldn't have done this but I was/am frustrated).

My pings are still horrible.

here are some example tracert's:

Tracing route to any-fp.wa1.b.yahoo.com [72.30.2.43]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     4 ms    95 ms     5 ms  192.168.15.1
  2     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  3   135 ms    93 ms    99 ms  10.41.164.197
  4    87 ms    84 ms   119 ms  64.13.115.205
  5    99 ms   101 ms   115 ms  six.yahoo.com [206.81.80.98]
  6   225 ms   204 ms   203 ms  ae-0.pat1.sjc.yahoo.com [216.115.100.95]
  7   224 ms   204 ms   203 ms  ae-0-d220.msr1.sk1.yahoo.com [216.115.106.137]
  8   123 ms   204 ms   124 ms  te-9-1.bas-k2.sk1.yahoo.com [68.180.160.15]
  9   225 ms   204 ms   205 ms  ir1.fp.vip.sk1.yahoo.com [72.30.2.43]

Trace complete.


Tracing route to any-fp.wa1.b.yahoo.com [72.30.2.43]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     2 ms     2 ms     3 ms  192.168.15.1
  2     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  3   230 ms   921 ms   101 ms  10.41.164.197
  4   128 ms   101 ms    58 ms  64.13.115.205
  5   128 ms   203 ms   102 ms  six.yahoo.com [206.81.80.98]
  6   124 ms   203 ms   204 ms  ae-0.pat1.sjc.yahoo.com [216.115.100.95]
  7   123 ms   920 ms   203 ms  ae-0-d230.msr2.sk1.yahoo.com [216.115.106.141]
  8   225 ms   204 ms   204 ms  te-8-1.bas-k1.sk1.yahoo.com [68.180.160.9]
  9   226 ms   203 ms   203 ms  ir1.fp.vip.sk1.yahoo.com [72.30.2.43]

Trace complete.


I included the first one because about 20% of the time I am seeing 90+ ms pings to the WiMax modem through the router.

I forgot to answer your question about how I am testing:

I am have tested using Home WiMax modem only wired, USB WiMax modem, Home WiMax modem + router wireless, Home WiMax modem+VOIP box+Router wireless.

Tracert with USB WiMax modem from same place in the house (there is only one tower for clear in my area so its the same tower):

Tracing route to any-fp.wa1.b.yahoo.com [72.30.2.43]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  2    54 ms    99 ms    94 ms  10.41.164.193
  3    77 ms   109 ms    94 ms  64.13.115.205
  4    72 ms    84 ms    99 ms  six.yahoo.com [206.81.80.98]
  5   167 ms   119 ms   129 ms  ae-0.pat1.sjc.yahoo.com [216.115.100.95]
  6   146 ms   149 ms   159 ms  ae-0-d230.msr2.sk1.yahoo.com [216.115.106.141]
  7   142 ms   113 ms    94 ms  te-8-1.bas-k2.sk1.yahoo.com [68.180.160.11]
  8   137 ms   159 ms   179 ms  ir1.fp.vip.sk1.yahoo.com [72.30.2.43]

Trace complete.

Not saying this is good by any means, but it is a heck of a lot better than the previous one.

[Maverick494]

I just got off the phone with my ISP and we did everything short of changing out the modem to eliminate network latency issues from their end.  I am now getting 70-90ms pings consistently to www.yahoo.com when wired to the modem.  www.speedtest.net was showing nothing higher than 165 ms and most was 90-110 ms ping with speeds of 4-8 mbps. 

I re-attached the router and I immediately shot up to 225 ms ping on speedtest.net

[Maverick494]

I decided to see what would happen if I put my PC into the DMZ on the DGL-4500....  Then I realized, I haven't tested this wired to the router.

Lo and Behold, wired to the router ping speeds are almost identical to being straight wired to the modem.  So this issue is PURELY on the wireless side of the router.

I run an Intel 6300N wifi card.  I am at a loss to explain this piss poor performance on the wireless side of this router.

[Maverick494]

This tears it for me.  The wireless performance on this router is unacceptable.  So unacceptable that I won't even try and sell this thing for a steep loss.  You can't even stream a youtube video at 720P over the wifi on this.

D-link almost had me sold that they were a serious competitor in this market, but I'll go back to Cisco/Linksys now thanks.  At least there you know you are going to get a router that either works like a champ or is an RMA, but not this half-assed thing that D-link has put out in the DGL-4500.

[Maverick494]

Please wait, resolving www.yahoo.com....
Resolved to 72.30.2.43.
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 128 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 226 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 93 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 103 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 103 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 106 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 98 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 89 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 137 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 85 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 91 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 105 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 111 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 94 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 86 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 111 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 99 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 99 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 104 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 105 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 84 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 93 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 93 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 98 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 100 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 86 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 102 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 102 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 96 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 105 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 106 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 83 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 101 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 100 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 102 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 100 milliseconds. TTL = 55
Response from 72.30.2.43 received in 95 milliseconds. TTL = 55
User stopped
Pings sent: 37
Pings received: 37
Pings lost: 0 (0% loss)
Shortest ping time (in milliseconds): 83
Longest ping time (in milliseconds): 226
Average ping time (in milliseconds): 103

even the ping test from the router itself is acceptable.

now for the one from my PC running wirelessly.

Pinging www.yahoo.com [72.30.2.43] with 32 bytes of dat
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=154ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=106ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=199ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=120ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=142ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=103ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=186ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=209ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=231ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=150ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=172ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=194ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=216ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=238ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=157ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=180ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=100ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=82ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=101ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=103ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=113ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=90ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=83ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=86ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=94ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=102ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=219ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=241ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=161ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=183ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=205ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=226ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=146ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=171ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=190ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=213ms TTL=55
Reply from 72.30.2.43: bytes=32 time=195ms TTL=55

Ping statistics for 72.30.2.43:
    Packets: Sent = 37, Received = 37, Lost = 0 (0% los
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 82ms, Maximum = 241ms, Average = 158ms

there is a 55ms ping increase average for running wireless and that is just unacceptable.

[FurryNutz]

What wireless mode and band are you using? Give G mode only at 2.4Ghz a try.

[Maverick494]

I did G mode only, no change.  It was actually a bit worse.  I did N only (which I cannot do all the time since I have a G only printer).  No change.  I am always on 2.4GHZ too because my wife has an Ipod touch and an Iphone and the printer will only do 2.4GHZ

[Trikein]

The issue isn't wireless performance of the router. This board is filled with people, including me, who see great performance. The issue is likely interference in your area or something this is causing latency with what ever channel of what ever band of what ever radio your are using. Also, if you had no latency going straight to your modem, and the latency was only on the first hop why did you call your ISP? This isn't meant as a rant, just as a reminder so you can focus on the actual cause of the problem.

If you want to test it, try removing the network from the environment. Bring it to work or somewhere there is little or no interference from cell phone, other networks, wireless printers, microwaves, etc. Any thing that uses a strong electrical current has the possibility of creating a strong EM field. Then from there, connect wireless to the router (no internet connection needed) and try your ping test. Fiddle with it until you get a decent latency (wireless will always be a good amount higher then wired) then return the network to its native environment.

Last, don't mistake latency with throughput. Just because you have high latency, doesn't mean that is the cause of your throughput problem. Also, what tests, short of how well you can stream youtube videos, to determine throughput?

[Maverick494]

The issue is exactly wireless performance in this case.  I have proved the wired side works fine.  I have proven that the direct wired WiMax modem works fine.  There was no phone (cell or cordless and my cordless is a 6GHZ band) in the room at the time.  So the only thing that could even come close to interfering is the WiMax modem operating in the 2.5 GHZ range, but that is nearly impossible due to the frequency spread between the two.

I have no throughput issues.  I get fine download speeds and my upload speeds are within norms.  That doesn't translate well to gaming.  World of Warcraft shows a 406 ms ping when I run through the router wireless, when I run wired I get about 180-200 ms to the same server.  So if that isn't a wireless issue I really don't know what is.

The cause of the problem is not even able to be indicated at the moment.  I have a symptom, but no cause or I could fix it.  I even went as far as to format my laptop to ensure that the ping is not a laptop issue.  I am still in the process of reinstalling drivers.



So while I am very happy for you and all the lucky users that get good performance, I do not.

[Maverick494]

Tracing route to any-fp.wa1.b.yahoo.com [72.30.2.43]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1   212 ms    67 ms   169 ms  mywimax [192.168.15.1]
  2     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  3    76 ms   108 ms    88 ms  10.41.164.197
  4   109 ms    68 ms    79 ms  64.13.115.205
  5    62 ms    68 ms    88 ms  six.yahoo.com [206.81.80.98]
  6    90 ms   118 ms   129 ms  ae-0.pat1.sjc.yahoo.com [216.115.100.95]
  7   171 ms   109 ms   148 ms  ae-1-d410.msr2.sk1.yahoo.com [216.115.106.157]
  8    95 ms   128 ms   149 ms  te-9-1.bas-k1.sk1.yahoo.com [68.180.160.13]
  9    85 ms   124 ms   129 ms  www.yahoo.com [72.30.2.43]

Trace complete.

that is right now.... notice the first hop from the router to the modem.  That is borked.  There should never ever be a ping more than a single ms or perhaps maybe 3 between your router and your modem.  Something is very not right there.  The cables are good because I have swapped all of them around and used them to tracert to verify.


Wireless Statistics

Sent : 1426788

TX Packets Dropped : 9660

Received : 935851

RX Packets Dropped : 3326

Errors : 877

That also doesn't look good to me.  Why is my wireless dropping packets like they are a hot car?  sure if you work out the percentage its not a high percentage, but pair it with that tracert and something smells of bad router.
 

[Trikein]

You sound logical and I respect that, so I will treat this issue with equal respect. I do not mean to say you do not have a problem, I just think your focus is better suited on environment then on hardware. While it very well good be configuration (of either the router or PC) before I start getting into some very complex conditions that can lead to above normal wireless latency, I need to remove other perimeters first.

But if you wish to look at a traceroute, we can do that do. The first hop should be from your computer to the  router. The next should be from your router to the WiMax modem. The 3rd is between your modem and the WiMax backhaul. The 4th is between the backhaul to the next LOS Transmitter. 5th is to your ISP. 6th is to their backbone. 7 and up are not relevent. Let me know if this is not correct. I am not a expert, nor is anyone here I doabt, on WiMax networking. As for the missed router missing the 2nd hop, it still routed correctly. It just didn't respond to that request from ICMP traffic. There is a known bug with how the 4500 handles ICMP but it does not effect performance.

As for latency equating to lag in WoW that is not accurate. Yes, high latency CAN mean lag, but that doesn't mean it does. Not all traffic is equal on the internet. I can tell you I have personally had Ping rates of 400-500ms with no noticeable lag. I would be much more concerned with the dropped packets, specially that high. That still brings us back back to the possible cause, and I believe that to be environmental effects on the wireless performance. If this can't be eliminated I can still attempt to troubleshoot the problem, but get ready for a long session of trial and error, because that leaves a lot of unknown elements.