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[XS]

Actually, XBL is not strictly P2P. Alot of people wish it was, but all multiplayer uses XBL as a proxy, so the IP's your router see won't be those of a actual person, but the XBL servers. Thats what port 3074 does, its the mechanism that NAT's the players IP address to Microsoft server IP. Thats why if you don't forward port 3074 to the Xbox, your NAT type is not Type 2 (excluding UPnP). If you don't believe me, look at your Internet Sessions next time you play and do a ARIN look up.

Oh sorry Harry I always refer to COD when talking about XBL since that is all I play online, this game is P2P and it will pick one of the players as the host, so you actually see everyone's IP address in the internet sessions.  Oh I have spent plenty of time looking at internet sessions, remember this thread?
http://forums.dlink.com/index.php?topic=46300.0

While playing Bops2 last night I looked at my internet sessions and sure enough, saw 12 different IP's connected to my port 3074, one for MS server that does not host the game and one for demonware stat tracking server, the rest were actual Xbox users that were playing the game with me.

I disagree. QoS only works on the upload (Thats why part of setting Gamefuel/etc is setting the upload. Notice they never ask for download?). So when your setting the local IP, your defining which computer's upload traffic the rule applies to. So by having a rule that doesn't include a certian IP would only handi-cap yourself, since that upload traffic would get default priority.

That is exactly why I include all IP addresses but what if the person is also host?

[FurryNutz]

Ok, I've turned OFF GF, IPs are reserved, uPnP is ON, SPI in enabled, NAT is Endpoint Ind for both TCP and UDP. Multi-cast Streaming enabled. No other settings enabled. Will test this tonite with 2 xboxes, one wired, the other on wired AP bridged to the 5Ghz radio the 4500. 

[Hard Harry]

The test I want to see is UPnP off and GF on. That way you are testing if GF is forwarding the ports required. But this should atleast show dual Xbox work with UPnP.

[FurryNutz]

I'll do that as well sir.

[DrunkJug]

We hopped back on a played again last night. Same issue one Xbox (first one turned on) had open NAT and the second had Moderate.

Very frustrating.

About to try again tonight fingers crossed. I will report back with results.

One thing of note is that last night after reading through the recent posts in this thread (and probably misinterpreting them ) I switched the remote ip range from 65.52.0.1 - 65.55.255.254 to 0.0.0.0 - 255.255.255.255 after doing that the best I could do is get both XBOX's to have moderate NAT. So I switched it back to what Furry set up and I could get one open and one moderate

[FurryNutz]

I ran 2 xboxes last night with GF OFF and only using reserved IPs for the boxes, NAT Endpoint and uPnP enabled. No other devices were online. NAT was OPEN on both and had a good time playing. 4 green bars mostly.

Going to test wtih GF ON and uPnP OFF next.

@Drunkjug, if you turn on the box with moderate NAT first, does the 2nd box then report moderate NAT?

Have you reset the network settings on all boxes? Try swapping the IP addresses on the router to see if the problem travels or persists.

Run a couple of tests like I'm doing:
Just disable GameFuel and leave uPnP enabled, and NAT set to endpoint independent and use the reserved IPs.
Then try: Enabling GameFuel and disable uPnP
When you make the changes for testing, make sure you turn OFF the boxes while making changes.

Let us know what you see.

[FurryNutz]

So uPnP is disabled and GF is enabled using Global ports and MS specific Remote IP Addreses and NAT is MODERATE on BO2. Gaming was good as I had a 4 green bars. I've have since put GF and uPnP back to there previous settings with them all enabled and NAT is now OPEN.

[DrunkJug]

turnred off GF. Turned on XBOX 1 moderate settings. Turned on XBOX 2 Open. Turned off XBOX 1 turned XBOX 1 back on Open. At that point XBXO 1 and 2 were both open with no GF on.

No ryhme or reason it pretty much seems to do what it wants to.

If I have moderate on either XBOX, USUALLY if I turn it back off and back on I get Open on both. Having to turn off and back on is a pain though and I don't understand why this is happening.

[Hard Harry]

So uPnP is disabled and GF is enabled using Global ports and MS specific Remote IP Addreses and NAT is MODERATE on BO2. Gaming was good as I had a 4 green bars. I've have since put GF and uPnP back to there previous settings with them all enabled and NAT is now OPEN.

Ok, then my thoughts on GF are correct. It doesn't do open NAT, which means it doesn't forward ports. I think it just has appeared to forward ports when actually UPnP has been doing the work in the background. So with knowing that I don't think GF should be used as a replacement for Port forwarding. Granted, its quite possible not all Dlink routers work the same way with QoS (AKA GF) but I think in general, GF should only be suggested if a person is seeing problems playing a game because other people are doing things on the network. It can maybe help if people are seeing latency, but truthfully, lag is more likly to be happening because of other issues then traffic management, and enabling QoS at all will always add a tiny bit of lag. These are just my opinions ofcourse. Feel free to discuss.

[FurryNutz]

I agree, QoS should mainly be used if there are other LAN side traffic being online at the same time to help minimize possible sharing of the internet with other devices being online at the same time or in cases of where multiple xboxes are used as well possibly with other devices.

I think I'll try and update the stickies to reflect this after doing a bit more testing on the 4500 and other model routers.

[FurryNutz]

Let me know if you want to review your router settings again. Theres got to be something going on that were missing. I have the same set up however using 1 xbox on a bridged 5Ghz connection to the router and my xbox is wired LAN and both are OPEN NAT. There's something going on.

Lets do a factory reset and set up the router from scratch...

turnred off GF. Turned on XBOX 1 moderate settings. Turned on XBOX 2 Open. Turned off XBOX 1 turned XBOX 1 back on Open. At that point XBXO 1 and 2 were both open with no GF on.

No ryhme or reason it pretty much seems to do what it wants to.

If I have moderate on either XBOX, USUALLY if I turn it back off and back on I get Open on both. Having to turn off and back on is a pain though and I don't understand why this is happening.

[DrunkJug]

I have a question. I am at work so I hope this makes sense but I thought that in order to forward ports for more than one device you had to "trigger" the ports. There is a page located in advanced/special applications where it says you can "trigger" the ports you want open.

Shouldn't we be using this page to open the ports (so that all devices can get Open NAT) and then GF to give priority to devices on the network?

I would think that this is the way it should work but once again I am no expert.

[FurryNutz]

I tried using Triggers before. Didn't notice anything. Again, I don't believe thats needed as uPnP handles the opening or seems to handle most of the connections with ports that devices need. I would also think that using any additional router processing would also introduce minor occurrences of lag or slower performance. 

All these years I've been working on these routers, the QoS and GF and uPnP has worked the best and should be working for you as well.

I think we need to start over possibly. Have you done a factory reset and then reloaded that saved router configuration file that I saved for you?

[DrunkJug]

ok that makes sense. On the other hand it seems to me as if using these "application rules" the ports would be open at all times kinda like putting a wedge in a door instead of being open and closed when needed by the router.

I almost see it like the way I prefer to use static IP's on my network. I have never had DHCP work reliably for me. At some point or another when I let a router hand out IP's I inevitably get the dreaded "a device on your network is already using the ip X.X.X.X Using static IP's I have NEVER had a single issue because I assign the numbers and take that chance of failure out of the equation.

then again I am no expert and I am just throwing ideas out there just to get some different ideas flowing

To answer your question I have not performed a factory reset on the router but I can. I have on the other hand wiped settings on both XBOX's. Thinking about it I should probably change the ip's on both XBOX's to something that I have never used just in case some kind of funky cache issue is going on.

[RocNrolla]

I have the dir857 and just  switched back to the 4500.
3 Xbox's 3, 3 copies of Halo 4 and 3 different Gamertags (Me and my two boys)
with just uPnp enabled I get open Nat consistently on all three Xbox's. no other QoS enabled.
reserved Ip's and Nat set to endpoint independent.
with the Dir-857.....that's a different story one is always switching from open to moderate
The 4500 is rock solid for me.