D-Link Forums
The Graveyard - Products No Longer Supported => Routers / COVR => DGL-4500 => Topic started by: junlee on August 05, 2011, 11:31:31 PM
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I am having issues in games that use peer-to-peer connections. At first I thought that it was just distance lag, so I tested this by logging into some games across two of my PCs and putting each one into a game room together. There was a 1 second+ delay for actions taken on each computer to register to the other computer. This has been an issue that has plagued me since I got the router over a year ago.
Current settings I am using:
-SPI Firewall disabled
-NAT UDP/TCP set to Endpoint Independent
-Norton Anti Virus Smart Firewall Disabled (still created a traffic rule allowing all traffic from these games)
-Allowed traffic from these games through windows firewall (even though it says controlled by Norton settings)
Is there anything else I can disable or change the settings for in order to possibly prevent incoming/outgoing connections to get blocked?
I have Comcast cable, and my modem does not have a built in router.
Can anyone help shed some light on this issue?
Thanks
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This might not have anything to do with it but my quick advice would be to try turning of Dynamic fragmentation by navigating to Advance > GameFuel and disable it. Restart the router etc. Let me know how things work out. Also what firmware are you on? How are the computer connected? Does this affect all p2p games?
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Chris
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This might not have anything to do with it but my quick advice would be to try turning of Dynamic fragmentation by navigating to Advance > GameFuel and disable it. Restart the router etc. Let me know how things work out. Also what firmware are you on? How are the computer connected? Does this affect all p2p games?
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Chris
Well I actually had GameFuel disabled altogether, however I tried enabling it and turned off Dynamic Fragmentation, but no luck.
I am on Firmware 1.14, 2008/10/16
I never upgraded from this when I bought the router because the newest firmware at the time was irreversible and everyone said it caused a ton of issues.
Both of the PCs used in these tests are connected via ethernet cables to the router (one is using cat6, one cat5). This has been happening with all p2p games. Even with friends that live close by, I will get terrible connections to them, however they will have no trouble connecting to other people (the same people I get high latency to).
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What HW version is your router?
What FW version is currently loaded?
I would look into getting a external network switch to put between the router and PCs. This will remove the router from processing PC traffic thats it does't need to be processing and keep peer to peer traffic going only between the PC when needed.
What ISP Service do you have? Cable or DSL?
What ISP Modem do you have? Stand Alone or built in router?
What ISP Modem make and model do you have?
Ensure DNS IP addresses are being filled in under Setup/Internet/Manual?
Turn off QoS options.
Turn off Advanced DNS Services if you have this option Setup/Internet/Manual.
Turn on DNS Relay under Setup/Networking.
Setup DHCP reserved IP addresses for all devices on the router.
Ensure devices are set to auto obtain an IP address.
Set Firewall settings to Endpoint Independent for TCP and UDP.
Always keep the FW thats loaded on less you are experiencing connection issues after you have troubleshot the problems. v1.14 is a good version and works well, you can update to v1.15 as well. If you upgrade to v1.2x, you can go back to older versions of 1.1x.
Well I actually had GameFuel disabled altogether, however I tried enabling it and turned off Dynamic Fragmentation, but no luck.
I am on Firmware 1.14, 2008/10/16
I never upgraded from this when I bought the router because the newest firmware at the time was irreversible and everyone said it caused a ton of issues.
Both of the PCs used in these tests are connected via ethernet cables to the router (one is using cat6, one cat5). This has been happening with all p2p games. Even with friends that live close by, I will get terrible connections to them, however they will have no trouble connecting to other people (the same people I get high latency to).
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What HW version is your router?
What FW version is currently loaded?
HW is A2, FW is 1.14
I would look into getting a external network switch to put between the router and PCs. This will remove the router from processing PC traffic thats it does't need to be processing and keep peer to peer traffic going only between the PC when needed.
I do have an 8 port Rosewill switch that I bought a while ago but haven't used yet. I figured that the more devices between the modem and the PC, the more lag there would be. I will try that out.
What ISP Service do you have? Cable or DSL?
What ISP Modem do you have? Stand Alone or built in router?
What ISP Modem make and model do you have?
I have Comcast Cable. My modem is stand alone. The model is an ARRIS TM502G/CT
Ensure DNS IP addresses are being filled in under Setup/Internet/Manual?
Turn off QoS options.
Turn off Advanced DNS Services if you have this option Setup/Internet/Manual.
Turn on DNS Relay under Setup/Networking.
Setup DHCP reserved IP addresses for all devices on the router.
Ensure devices are set to auto obtain an IP address.
Set Firewall settings to Endpoint Independent for TCP and UDP.
Well on my settings menu, it is a little different.
Here is my main menu:
(http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/2269/ss1u.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/804/ss1u.jpg/)
Under "Manual Configure" I get this:
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6286/ss2vi.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/ss2vi.jpg/)
I also don't see any QoS options other than Game Fuel, which has been disabled since I first hooked up the router.
Under "Network Settings" I have this:
(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9748/ss3z.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/ss3z.jpg/)
These are my firewall settings:
(http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/5181/ss4uc.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/560/ss4uc.jpg/)
I just added reserved DHCP for my devices, and I will try using the switch now. After some more testing, I will post how it went. In the meantime though, if any of my settings seem to be screwed up, please let me know.
Thanks
Edit: Tried out the switch and reserved DHCP but it didn't seem to change anything.
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Ensure DNS IP addresses are being filled in under Basic/Internet/Manual. You can find these addresses under Status/Device Info/Wan Section on the router. Copy and paste them in.
I would connect up the switch and the PCs to the switch and see how your gaming does.
FYI, Some Arris modems don't work well with external routers. Does this modem provide you with phone services as well?
Sorry for mentioning QoS, thats on the DIR series of routers. You'll use Gamefuel in place of QoS if you need to use this. Turn it off in mean time.
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Ensure DNS IP addresses are being filled in under Basic/Internet/Manual. You can find these addresses under Status/Device Info/Wan Section on the router. Copy and paste them in.
I would connect up the switch and the PCs to the switch and see how your gaming does.
FYI, Some Arris modems don't work well with external routers. Does this modem provide you with phone services as well?
Sorry for mentioning QoS, thats on the DIR series of routers. You'll use Gamefuel in place of QoS if you need to use this. Turn it off in mean time.
Well I tried filling in the DNS addresses and hooking up the PCs to the switch and the switch to the router, which didn't help so..
I tried hooking up one PC directly to my modem and had a friend help me test the delay in game, but sadly it was still there (identical delay when in game with him as I had when I was in game on both of my PCs, and he lives halfway across the country) so I guess the issue is my modem. The modem also provides phone service for my house though so I am stuck with it. Although, about a year ago I lived in a different house and I had a Comcast modem which only provided internet service (was much smaller) but still had connection issues in p2p games (different games than the one I am playing now, though) so maybe it is something on Comcast's end. Even though speed test reports high speeds (30mbps down, 10mbps up), I guess the issue is Comcast.
Thanks for the help though, I'm sure these new router settings should at least provide better performance for other applications.
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Well at least your seeing the same results when direct to the ISP Modem. Unfortunately these Arris Modems that have phone service seem to not work well with external routers and I guess from what you say, not good for gaming. I have a buddy in MN that had the internet and phone service thru an Arris modem. We spend hours tring to configure the 4500 to work well. He eventually gave up the phone service and got rid of the Arris modem and bought a Motorola SB6120 modem. Understand that not everyone has this option if you need the phone service. I believe its the way that the Arris modems are set up and designed. They have there own routers built in and they can't be turned off like some DSL modems for bridging. I wish there was a good work around for these modems. Just seems they are specific for what they are.
Might see if the modem has a DMZ that you might be able to use, put the 4500's IP address in there. Not sure if they have one or not.
Eventually you'll need to figure out your needs and make adjustments to get gaming working better. Keep us posted on how it goes.
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I have a buddy in MN that had the internet and phone service thru an Arris modem. We spend hours tring to configure the 4500 to work well. He eventually gave up the phone service and got rid of the Arris modem and bought a Motorola SB6120 modem.
Might see if the modem has a DMZ that you might be able to use, put the 4500's IP address in there. Not sure if they have one or not.
I checked the modem setup page, it appears the Comcast has everything locked in it. I can only view settings, not modify anything.
I am considering buying the Motorola SB6120...all of the reviews say it is a huge upgrade over stock Comcast modems...however the issue is with my phone lines. I am wondering if I can just buy the Motorola modem and plug my PCs into it, but still keep the ARRIS around for phone lines.
Edit: Ok I just talked to Comcast live support and they said I could buy a new modem to feed the internet through, and they would just disable the internet capabilities of my Arris but still feed phone service through it without charging me for a second line... Buying the Motorola now :P
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Wait, what is the orginal problem? You said issues with P2P? But then your testing consisted of testing LAN to LAN? A Lan to LAN test would say nothing about a problem with the modem which is LAN to WAN.
What were the orginal symtoms with the P2P? Slow throughput? What kind of phone modem do your have? A TM602g? (http://www.amazon.com/ARRIS-TM602G-Telephony-Modem/dp/B0039UWW54). If so, that shouldn't have any NAT or router like function. Comcast does sometimes throttle, but their exact network management scheme is unknown to me since the lawsuits. Any Comcast experts?
PRO Tip: If someone has a Static IP on a Broadband ISP, and on a Cisco CMTS, many times the ARP cache has to be cleared to allow the new router to acquire the static IP. A work around is to use mac cloning to either make the new router have the same mac address as the old one. Or if the IP isn't ARPed to the Mac of the router, but the new router is just ARPed to the DHCP address first acquired on connection, you can just use Mac cloning to change the last digit of the Mac.
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Wait, what is the orginal problem? You said issues with P2P? But then your testing consisted of testing LAN to LAN? A Lan to LAN test would say nothing about a problem with the modem which is LAN to WAN.
What were the orginal symtoms with the P2P? Slow throughput? What kind of phone modem do your have? A TM602g? (http://www.amazon.com/ARRIS-TM602G-Telephony-Modem/dp/B0039UWW54). If so, that shouldn't have any NAT or router like function. Comcast does sometimes throttle, but their exact network management scheme is unknown to me since the lawsuits. Any Comcast experts?
I have the ARRIS TM502G (http://www.amazon.com/Arris-TM502G-ARRIS-Telephony-Modem/dp/B001AMUI7W/ref=sr_1_1?s=miscellaneous&ie=UTF8&qid=1312805755&sr=1-1). Well my main issues are with p2p games (since those are what I mainly play), however I still tend to get worse than average pings with server based games as well. As far as the LAN to LAN test goes, it really isn't LAN to LAN because each PC still has to connect to the game server which establishes the connection between the two computers, or at least that is how I see it. I generally get bad connections with everyone though, even while directly connected to the modem. When I play against people that live a few hours away, it is like playing against someone that lives across the world. About once a week my modem also disconnects and resets itself over and over again for about 5 minutes, which is annoying too. I've had this modem for probably 3 years now and it has given me a lot of trouble, so I am hoping the new one fixes some issues.
I got the Motorola off of Amazon with 2day prime shipping so I will post the results when it comes :)
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Your modem resets over and over again atleast once a week? If so, they should be able to see that in the logs. What did Comcast say about this? I am surprised they didn't offer to replace the modem, given that it's Comcast equipment.
Overall, I don't think its just one problem. But if you already ordered the modem, then I guess we will see what problems stay, and which ones go away.
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Yeah, it resets a lot. The one I had before this (same model) did it too but way more often. They are pretty poor, and all of the Comcast buildings in my area only offer this Arris for internet + phone, or a Scientific-Atlanta modem for just internet (which I've had before in the past and had issues with too).
For some reason I never really thought that I could buy my own modem and use it with Comcast, or else I would have done it a long time ago.
Oh also, the Arris is on Docsis2.0, and the new Motorola I got is a Docsis3.0 so that should be a nice boost as well (Comcast's website claims my plan goes up to 8mb/s down on 2.0, and 16mb/s down on 3.0).
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If all the modems in the area are having the same issues, I don't blame the modems, I blame the area. Specially if you had problems with the internet only modem. I would ask your ISP to look at your signal levels. You want to know:
Rx (also known as downstream power levels)
Tx (also known as upstream power levels)
DS SNR (down stream signal to noise ratio)
US SNR (upstream signal to noise ratio)
How many resets a week, and how many T3 per week.
Sounds like their is noise or ingress in your area. That wouldn't cause one PC on your network to have more latency, but like I said, I think your having more then 1 problem. JMHO. Good luck.
Also, if phone support doesn't seem to be giving you reasonable answers, try here. (https://secure.dslreports.com/forum/comcastdirect)
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Well I can see the levels on my current modem.
Downstream
Freq/Power: 603.000 MHz 3 dBmV
Signal to Noise Ratio: 38 dB
Modulation: QAM256
Upstream
Freq/Power: 30.650 MHz 51 dBmV
Channel Type: DOCSIS 2.0 (ATDMA)
Symbol Rate: 5120 kSym/sec
Modulation: QAM64
The upstream seems quite high. Since I was reading about how the Motorola modem I bought is picky about levels, I decided to see what my current modem is at. I talked to Comcast live support about it, however I got matched with a CS person who was clueless. She thought I was saying my bandwidth is too high whenever I asked her about my upstream power levels. After explaining to her over and over what I wanted to know, she said "Ok, your levels seem high. I will disconnect your modem and reprovision it." Well after she kept resetting it for 10 mins straight, the levels are exactly where they were before she started.
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Reprovisioning is the new "reboot your PC" from technical support. Don't get me wrong, sometimes it can fix certain problems, but those are pretty rare. Also, it will NEVER change your signal levels. With that high TX, what I am concerned about is your TX SNR, which only your ISP can see. As a rule, don't use chat support. Many times they are contracted out, and usually support 3-4 different ISP's at the same time. I would suggest getting a tech out there, because since you will now be putting a splitter on your line so you can the Arris and Motorola in the same room? That will raise your Tx 3-4dB, and then your going to start having issues with even a D2 modem, nevermind a D3 modem. Also, with a +3 dB Rx and a 51 Tx, that makes me think you have some kind of amp? If not, the Tx is probably high on your street.
Anyway, I disgress. Some questions on your OP. You said when you played a P2P game, one PC has a 1 second delay? Was it always the same PC? Have you tried running some pings to your modem's gateway while having both PC's connect? We need to know if your basic connection is slowing down, or just the traffic for the game.
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I currently have a 2-way splitter in this room powering my cable modem as well as my hdtv box. The splitter says -3.5db on the output, and I tested the upstream without the splitter attached and it was reading 48db so that rules out a defective splitter. However a big issue is that I ordered a 2ghz 3-way splitter to power the new devices, and it has -8.9db on the outputs so that will jack my upstream up even higher, and put my downstream into the negatives (which I assume is bad?).
I just tested both PCs. They can ping each other, and the gateway with <1ms consistently. Even after I log them both into a game together, they ping each other and the gateway <1ms. So I think that we can rule out any blockage within the local network. It seems that the issue is the traffic going out over the wan.
I think that I should probably have a Comcast technician come out and adjust the power on my lines.
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Yes, I agree. Try to order their wiring protection plan and just cancel it after they leave. That will probably protect you from most charges. But when I said the gateway, I meant the modem's gateway, not your computers gateway. You can find it on routers Status > Device Info page. That is the hop between modem and ISP network. Ping that and 192.168.100.1. If you see no latency to the modem, but latency after the modem (like 50ms+) then it's on your ISP's side.
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On my main PC that I game with, I get between 7ms and 11ms ping to the gateway. On my secondary PC that I was doing the local testing with, I get between 9ms and 15ms ping to the gateway.
Hmm. If I have a technician come out to adjust the power on my lines, I might as well have him wire up a phone input in a different room so that I don't have to keep both modems in here and triple split my line.
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The best place to put a MTA is in the basement closest to the punch block. Not only will that give you a clearer phone connection, but he probably won't charge, and be a modem relocate at worst.
The latency seems fine. Do you still experiance the latency with the game? If so, I would say its a QoS issue, since layer 1-2 seems to be good. Is it always the same computer which is slower then the others or is that random?
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To the OP, I would recommend adding a switch to the back end of the 4500 router and connecting the gaming PCs to the switch. You shouldn't notice any lag if your playing games on the LAN side and your not needed any gaming from the WAN side. Switch helps relieve some of the processing that is not needed with gaming on the LAN side from the router.
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To the OP, I would recommend adding a switch to the back end of the 4500 router and connecting the gaming PCs to the switch. You shouldn't notice any lag if your playing games on the LAN side and your not needed any gaming from the WAN side. Switch helps relieve some of the processing that is not needed with gaming on the LAN side from the router.
I added a switch the other day when you first recommended it, and my gaming PCs have been attached to it ever since then. The problem is, I'm not doing any LAN gaming. These p2p games are still online and have to send data to the game server constantly. Even when playing in a game room with 2 of my own PCs, they have to go out through the WAN.
The best place to put a MTA is in the basement closest to the punch block. Not only will that give you a clearer phone connection, but he probably won't charge, and be a modem relocate at worst.
The latency seems fine. Do you still experiance the latency with the game? If so, I would say its a QoS issue, since layer 1-2 seems to be good. Is it always the same computer which is slower then the others or is that random?
Yeah, I'm still experiencing the latency in game. I just repinged the gateway from both computers, and they are both reading average of 8ms now. Have you ever played a p2p game where your connection was so poor with someone, they would appear to 'teleport' around when moving? That was happening to me periodically last night. Even when playing with my friend that I do most of my latency testing against (always have about a 0.5-1 second delay for my attacks to register on him, just like playing against my other PC), every 15 seconds or so I would randomly see him appear 10 feet in a different direction. That normally doesn't happen, and I asked other people in the game room and they didn't seem to have any lag problem with him.
Could this be related to the upstream power level coming into my modem? It almost seems like it is momentarily dropping connection.
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It could be. Absent of packet loss or latency does not mean their is a absent of a problem, it just helps isolate it. Maybe you could try bypassing the network and switch and trying a online game and seeing if the lag and teleporting exsist.
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It could be. Absent of packet loss or latency does not mean their is a absent of a problem, it just helps isolate it. Maybe you could try bypassing the network and switch and trying a online game and seeing if the lag and teleporting exsist.
I tried directly connecting to modem and playing with my friends the other day, and still had the exact same delay for my actions to register. There was no teleporting issue at that time, however the teleporting happened for the first time last night (at least against my friends). I've seen it before on people that live across the world from me (where the connection is bound to be poor), but not with people that live near me.
The new modem arrives tomorrow, however it may get a poor signal while triple splitting on the line in my room. First, I will directly connect it to the cable line in here after I get Comcast to switch the signal over so that I can make sure it works fine on its own, but I will have to throw the other modem back on the line shortly after so that I can get the phone lines in my house back up.
Hopefully I can get a Comcast technician out here on Thursday to move the phone modem to my garage so that I can get it out of here, and also readjust the power on my lines.
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I tried directly connecting to modem and playing with my friends the other day, and still had the exact same delay for my actions to register. There was no teleporting issue at that time, however the teleporting happened for the first time last night (at least against my friends). I've seen it before on people that live across the world from me (where the connection is bound to be poor), but not with people that live near me.
The new modem arrives tomorrow, however it may get a poor signal while triple splitting on the line in my room. First, I will directly connect it to the cable line in here after I get Comcast to switch the signal over so that I can make sure it works fine on its own, but I will have to throw the other modem back on the line shortly after so that I can get the phone lines in my house back up. Lets us know if you can put the modem online with out any splitters and see how it goes. Splitters can cause a drop in signal levels.
Hopefully I can get a Comcast technician out here on Thursday to move the phone modem to my garage so that I can get it out of here.
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Lets us know if you can put the modem online with out any splitters and see how it goes. Splitters can cause a drop in signal levels.
Yeah, I will test it directly connected to the line coming into my room first. Sadly, there's already 2 splitters in my garage on the main line that comes in. Iirc, there's a 4way on the main line and a 3way connected to it.
Hmm I wonder if the line coming into my room is on the first splitter, or on the second one. If it's on the second one, I imagine that I would get a better signal by moving it over to the first one so it's not already split twice. Ahh..if it is on the second one, then that would mean it is already split 3 times before it gets to my modem (twice in garage, once in my room) so that could be why the upstream is so high.
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Any chance of the ISP putting in a dedicated Cable internet line alone with having the other just for TV stuff?
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Any chance of the ISP putting in a dedicated Cable internet line alone with having the other just for TV stuff?
Hmm I don't think they would...I can try asking if I get a technician out here.
I think one thing that I will try is to put the cable line coming into my house onto a 2way splitter, then putting the cable going into my room directly on to that, and the splitters containing all of the TV lines in my house onto the other output. That way, the only thing between the direct line and my room is a 2way, rather than a 4 way (there's actually two 4-ways, not a 4-way and a 3-way).
I suppose it was kind of a waste for me to buy a 2ghz splitter to put in my room since I just noticed the two splitters that Comcast put in my garage are only 1ghz each :-[
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well, keep us posted. Hope something works out for you. Once you get the lines cleared out and set up well, You'll like the SB-6120 man. Good modem.
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Well I just got the SB6120 hooked up. Already noticing a difference on speedtest...for the past few days the Arris was reporting 18mbps down (which is pretty low, normally gets in upper 20s). Soon as I switched over to the SB6120 it shot up to 36mbps down...but I think it should still be higher (on the 20MB/s speed blast plan with Comcast).
While I was on the phone with the Comcast tech, I asked him to take a look at my power levels and he said the upstream was a bit on the high side and he was seeing noise on my line that could be causing connection issues. He said he will be out tomorrow morning to take a look at it so hopefully that fixes my problems :)
I will let you guys know how it goes. Thanks again for the continued support, even after we discovered my router had nothing to do with it 8)
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Make sure you have them check the lines and if you can, get a dedicated line installed off the junction box if they'll do that for you. Then you can use splitters all you want on the other lines. Keep us posted. Hope they get it working better for you.
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Make sure you have them check the lines and if you can, get a dedicated line installed off the junction box if they'll do that for you. Then you can use splitters all you want on the other lines. Keep us posted. Hope they get it working better for you.
Well the lines in my neighborhood are all underground so I don't think they will be digging up my yard to run another cable to my house :/
Hmm one thing I never mentioned was that I livestream my games sometimes and occasionally it runs good (above 1100kb/s upload rate), but often times it drops below 200kb/s and sometimes as low at 10kb/s (which makes it impossible to stream). I'm wondering if this could be linked to the 'noise' the tech was seeing on my line. I'm also assuming that a bad upstream could be why I get the delay in p2p games (since the game server only recognizes your actions based on what your opponent's game client sees).
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They need to test he lines from the main junction box down the street or where ever it may be up to the junction box at your house, There should be one. I have one. Might not be for you. I would ask them to make sure the line is good from there box to your house though. They will put in new lines if the current one is bad. They don't have to dig up as they have this machine that buries it, I think. They had to do mine 2 times. ::) Not there fault.
Once that is tested then they could test the line from outside the house into where the modem is. Again, see if you can get a single, no splitter line installed if you can. Keep us posted.
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Well, Comcast just left here. They said that they wanted to put in another line, but box at my house only supports 4 connections and they are all full from other customers. They also said they couldn't lower the power at all on the line because then my neighbors would lose their signals, and they would call another tech out to undo it.
So as a temporary work around, I got them to make me a bunch of cable so that I can hook my TV up from a bedroom next to mine that isn't being used and I removed the 2way splitter in my room and directly connect my modem to my wall, which puts my upstream power at a safe level. I also got them to put my old eMTA that's powering my phone lines into my garage to get it out of here too.
They couldn't see any noise on the line here at all, so there was nothing they could fix for my connection. I am still getting enough latency in game to make it nearly unplayable :(
I had a friend test the delay with me last night. When we are connected to each other, he barely gets any delay at all (maybe 30ms), but I'm still getting ~500ms+. That being said, I would assume it is just my upstream having issues sending my game packets out fast enough, but I can receive other people's packets just fine. I don't know what else I can do :(
I ran an extended ping to my gateway, out of 100 pings the average was ~7ms, but like 6 of the pings were from 20ms-50ms. I don't know if that means anything, I mentioned it to the Comcast tech and he couldn't think of anything either.
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Hmmm..are they still going to add a new line to the house? Suppose they couldn't put in a new line from there box to your house.
Still seeing lag in the game huh? You sure all other applications, auto disk defrag and additional security SW like Anti Virus and Firewalls, including MS firewall is disabled during game play?
Just out of curiosity, what kind of PC hardware do you have?
Ram Size?
Video Ram Size?
CPU speed?
HDD interface? IDE or SATA?
What game are you trying to play?
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Hmmm..are they still going to add a new line to the house? Suppose they couldn't put in a new line from there box to your house.
Still seeing lag in the game huh? You sure all other applications, auto disk defrag and additional security SW like Anti Virus and Firewalls, including MS firewall is disabled during game play?
Just out of curiosity, what kind of PC hardware do you have?
Ram Size?
Video Ram Size?
CPU speed?
HDD interface? IDE or SATA?
What game are you trying to play?
I've tried completely uninstalled my AV/software firewall (norton), disabled windows firewall, everything.
My main PC has:
Intel core i7 950 @ 3.0ghz
12gb triple channel ddr3 @ 1333mhz
2x Geforce GTX470 in SLI
64gb OCZ Agility II SSD running windows
Western Digital SATA HDD running my games and programs
Older PC I have been testing the game with too has:
AMD Phenom II x4 955 @ 3.2ghz
8gb dual channel OCZ DDR3 @ 1333mhz
Geforce GTX260
Western Digital Sata HDD
Both are on Windows 7 x64 home premium. The game I am currently testing with is Rusty Hearts, which started their North American closed beta about a week and a half ago;that could mean unstable servers and netcode, however it wouldn't explain why I'm getting the issues and everyone I play with isn't. I've had issues with other p2p games in the past where I would see a poor connection to most people and would experience the same type of delay. There is no frame lag at all, just connection latency.
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NICE pc man. Sheesh. YA I would say it's not your PC.
Well since you did mention that you did try gaming directly to the ISP Modem(arris). Have you tried this again after you go the SB6120? Curious if you might see this issue still when direct. I presume that if you still see the same problem, that the issue still lyes with the ISP cabling.
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NICE pc man. Sheesh.
Thanks. I built it in November to test out Nvidia Surround gaming using 3 monitors @ 5800x1080 resolution. Pretty cool experience :)
Hmm I haven't tried directly connecting to the SB6120. I will need to wait for a friend to get home to do some proper testing with me since I won't be able to connect my second PC if I remove the router. I will try it out later and post the results.
I was messing around yesterday looking at my connections with netstat -n and I found the game server IP and the port range it uses for the game. I tried to manually ping the IP but it timed out. They probably just block ICMP based packets, because my friend who doesn't get any connection lag in game couldn't ping it either. I don't know if there is another way to test latency to the IP besides pinging in the command prompt >.>
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I Think Harry might know some additional netstat commands or someone else. I don't use it very often if at all. I suppose I should use it more.
Is this a game server free or is it a pay service? Maybe someone else besides your buddy could get on line too and check and test with you. However seems like if all your buddies are playing great and your not, probably still on your end then.
Might have someone here check your router settings via teamviewer.com too to be sure the router is set up well.
Keep us posted.
Thanks. I built it in November to test out Nvidia Surround gaming using 3 monitors @ 5800x1080 resolution. Pretty cool experience :)
Hmm I haven't tried directly connecting to the SB6120. I will need to wait for a friend to get home to do some proper testing with me since I won't be able to connect my second PC if I remove the router. I will try it out later and post the results.
I was messing around yesterday looking at my connections with netstat -n and I found the game server IP and the port range it uses for the game. I tried to manually ping the IP but it timed out. They probably just block ICMP based packets, because my friend who doesn't get any connection lag in game couldn't ping it either. I don't know if there is another way to test latency to the IP besides pinging in the command prompt >.>
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It is a free to play game, and like most f2p game companies, the customer service is terrible so I haven't been able to get them to help me.
I made some videos demonstrating the delay.
Here is from my perspective:
http://www.twitch.tv/sandoichi/b/292007380 (http://www.twitch.tv/sandoichi/b/292007380)
From opponent's perspective:
http://www.twitch.tv/sandoichi/b/292008638 (http://www.twitch.tv/sandoichi/b/292008638)
You can see in the second video what it looks like with 0 delay, and how much faster it is than the first one. There's about 0.5-1 second delay for the hits to register, which means while swinging at a moving target it becomes very difficult to land a hit or a series of hits. The game only registers that you hit someone if their client see's you hit them, so you would have to aim way in front of them if they are moving in order to land a hit. When my friends play, their screens look very similar to the second video. Not exactly 0 delay, but very minimal and hardly noticeable.
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Definately notice the differences.
Any chance that any one in the same town as you that you could take your PC to there network and test the game out? Would be interesting to see if your PC and game reacts the same at a different ISP or Network. I kind of doubt it would. Just another idea for troubleshooting. Really think this is an ISP/cabling issue.
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Some live close, as in like a 5 hour drive but that isn't practical for me to test >_>
Hmm. One of my friends that I hang out with a lot has a different ISP (Verizon FiOS). He doesn't play these types of games but maybe sometime I can bring my PC over his house to test it out. None of my friends that I game with have Comcast, so I think it may very well be an ISP issue. Even my friend who has slow DSL gets no delay :(
I will still test directly connecting to my new modem whenever I get a chance tonight.
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Sounds like a good test if you can take ur PC to your friends place for a quick test and see.
Let us know how it goes.
;)
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Ok, alot of updates. LOL. Sorry I didn't fallow this, but I been busy with my own network issues. Well, not really mine, but my friends who I am helping. A couple questions:
Soon as I switched over to the SB6120 it shot up to 36mbps down...but I think it should still be higher (on the 20MB/s speed blast plan with Comcast).
I don't understand, if your on a 20Mb Tier, why do you think it should be faster then 36Mb plan?
Hmm one thing I never mentioned was that I livestream my games sometimes and occasionally it runs good (above 1100kb/s upload rate), but often times it drops below 200kb/s and sometimes as low at 10kb/s (which makes it impossible to stream). I'm wondering if this could be linked to the 'noise' the tech was seeing on my line. I'm also assuming that a bad upstream could be why I get the delay in p2p games (since the game server only recognizes your actions based on what your opponent's game client sees).
Could be, maybe not. I don't think you have enough data to say one way or another. However, if you see you experience lag at the same time you experience drops in transfer rates, then that increases the likely hood the lag has something to do with the connections. For example, some people who play consoles offline also experiencing lag, by their system overheating, or a dirty disc, or the refresh rate on their monitors. Not to say I think your issue has anything to do with that, just saying we need to keep a open mind. Can you test your game offline or LAN only?
I ran an extended ping to my gateway, out of 100 pings the average was ~7ms, but like 6 of the pings were from 20ms-50ms. I don't know if that means anything, I mentioned it to the Comcast tech and he couldn't think of anything either.
Is that a problem? Yes. Is it the problem that is causing your issue? There is a chance no. A spike of 12-37ms every couple of mins wouldn't cause the constant lag you are experiancing. It might explain everything being fine, then suddenly you get a lag spike, you studder, or glitch, then it goes back to normal.
Looking around, i started to see this is a common issue. Hear is a question, are you only playing against your friend? Or other friends close to you? Check out this post
http://rustyhearts-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=81651
Alot of people reporting the same issue. What about other online games. Any problems? If you mostly play your friend, and you have lag, and he doesn't its quite possible that HE is causing YOUR lag. The way that most P2P games work is to slow down the faster player, or atleast slow down the client to match the host (friend).
Also check out this thread? http://rustyhearts-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=82481
Says something about a program?
Also, what controller do you use? Seems the game has a program called Xtrap that actually all your mouse and keyboard commands go through, to put bluntly, to make sure people aren't cheating.
CHeck out this thread too. More people with the issue. http://rustyhearts-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=80391&page=2
Actually reminds me alot of the lag we used to experiance in Fat Princess (don't hate) for the PS3. Its P2P but it still goes through the PSN servers.
Last, have you downloaded the latest patch? Some people say the last patch helped. Oh, and there was server maintence starting 8/9. Better or worst?
LOL. I now know more about this game more then most whole play it. Oi I am a nerd.
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I don't understand, if your on a 20Mb Tier, why do you think it should be faster then 36Mb plan?
Well, one page I read on Comcast listed their speeds as MB/s, and speedtest/shaperprobe list mbps, so I thought that Comcast was advertising Megabytes, not megabits. They seem to mix up mb/s and mbps quite a bit, and had me confused. I know for a fact that I've downloaded much higher than 20mbps, and at my old house when I was on their 8/2 plan I was still downloading at similar speeds as I am now, which is why I figured their speeds were supposed to be in bytes.
Can you test your game offline or LAN only?
Nope, only online, as with the other p2p games I have played. These games are all imports from korea, where p2p is perfectly fine since everyone is close together (they IP ban everyone outside of south korea from playing their version and require a valid KSSN and matching name/phone number to make an account). I haven't seen any f2p games with offline support. They only make money from people buying optional items from Cash Shops so they force you to play online.
Looking around, i started to see this is a common issue. Hear is a question, are you only playing against your friend? Or other friends close to you? Check out this post
Lol some of those posts and threads are mine :p
Also check out this thread? Says something about a program?
Oh, it uses a program called Pando Media Booster when you first download the game. Its basically a download accelerator which uses some p2p connections I think. I always uninstall it immediately after the game finishes downloading.
Also, what controller do you use? Seems the game has a program called Xtrap that actually all your mouse and keyboard commands go through, to put bluntly, to make sure people aren't cheating.
Hmm what do you mean what controller? I play with a Logitech G15 keyboard and a Logitech MX518 mouse. The actions aren't delayed whenever I cast them, the characters show their animation as soon as I press the key. It is just delay for the game to recognize the action (for my opponent's client to see it). As an experiment, I was controlling my character on PC1 while looking at PC2's monitor. There was a 0.5-1 second delay in every action. Just moving around took a second to register on the second PC.
Last, have you downloaded the latest patch? Some people say the last patch helped. Oh, and there was server maintence starting 8/9. Better or worst?
Yeah I'm all patched up. The latest maintenance only fixed an issue with the in game mail-box not letting you take items out of it lol. Hasn't changed my lag at all
Hear is a question, are you only playing against your friend? Or other friends close to you?
Well, I live in PA. I have been doing a lot of tests with a friend in Indiana, and a friend in Texas. I get the exact same delay to both of them, and both of them get no delay on their attacks when hitting my character, which is why I think it may have something to do with my upstream. Normally in p2p both people would lag equally to each other if the connection was just long distance or poor, but it seems to be only going one way. In regular matches though, I play against people from everywhere and I haven't fought a single person where I don't get delay.
One of the lag threads mentioned PvP and dungeons. Now here's the weird thing. In dungeons, I get 0 delay when playing alone, which makes sense since I'd be the host for that dungeon instance. Now when a friend joins, I still get 0 delay when hitting monsters (even when he is the host), however sometimes I see a monster teleport lag (which would be normal p2p lag). So I'm assuming dungeons register your hits based on what your own client sees, unlike PvP.
Also in one of the threads that I made, which you linked, the game server hardcore lagged for like 10 minutes one day. It started while I was testing delay, and suddenly when the lag started my delay completely went away. I figured that the PvP had to be mostly server sided rather than p2p if the lag adjusted my delay, however I later figured out what caused this. The PvP matches were taking like 30 seconds extra to start, in which time I guess the server couldn't establish a connection between my 2 PCs, so it assumed one disconnected and just started registering my hits based off of what my own client saw (like dungeons) which took away all my delay. I found this out because a few days later, my second PC actually did disconnected while testing but the character remained in game and I could hit it with 0 delay.
It may be a while before I can get my PC over to a friend's house to test his internet and see if this is an ISP issue or not >_>
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I know for a fact that I've downloaded much higher than 20mbps, and at my old house when I was on their 8/2 plan I was still downloading at similar speeds as I am now, which is why I figured their speeds were supposed to be in bytes.
Yea, powerboost is still glitchy for most ISP. It's all pretty complicated (even I don't understand it 100% and I should) but try not to think of speed as Mbps. Instead think of it like moving from one house to another. A Mbps is like one day worth of move. In reality, that day is made up of tons of little tiny trips. Some bigger, some quicker, some not even moving stuff, but just used to organize the whole thing. When a transfer occurs, it's given a session ID. The MTS(system in your ISP) monitors that session ID ans tries to limit/control/etc the traffic. Its not so much a speed dial they can turn up or down, but rather integrated into the way they are using DOCSIS, the system behind how cable modems work. So when you first start a session, you can get much higher speeds per frame then set by your modem's configuration file, so as the session goes on (usually a second or two) it forces a idle, or a handicap on the traffic to confine it to the restrictions placed upon by the modem's configuration file(that is determines by your internet tier). Where it gets complicated is with powerboost and DOCSIS 3. Powerboost, or what ever proprietary term your ISP calls it, can adjust the restrictions places upon certain session ID's based on the available bandwidth in the area. It's only supposed to work on single sessions, to give you the first couple of seconds of extra speed to say, buffer a HD movie stream. In torrent downloads, which have seeds to multiple clients, your getting multiple sessions (aka Multicast I think) so that speed boost can be amplified. Then you have DOCSIS 3.0, and the session system kind of breaks down there, because the CMTS isn't fully designed to track which sessions belong to which modem. In practicably terms, this means, if you have 10Mb down, and speedboost allows up to 12, and your bonding on 4 downstream channels of your DOCSIS 3, you could a almost 100% speed increase. Now like I said before, that speed increase isn't permanent, so it gives you a connection that goes fast, then slow, then fast, then slow. I am sure you have seen this with speed tests. Where it goes way up, then down a bit, then up. Or it goes up, and then slowly down, making the test take a long time. This kind of traffic management can cause issues, I am sure you can imagine, with real time games. Also, keep in mind, their is some inacurcy in this description of DOCSIS, because A, I don't 100% understand it(I am not a engineer), and B, I wanted to keep it within the scope of this post. Thought it might help for you to understand some of what is going on in the background.
Here is what I suggest:
1. Try this test (http://myspeed.visualware.com/index.php). Not only is it one of the more accurate ones, but the support for it really helps you understand it's results. Look at the capicity vs the speed: Capacity (of about speed). Look at the QoS. Look at your TCP graph. Compare before and during particular bad lag. Look at your forced idle and the max pause between frames. All these things are going to give you clues, **assuming this has anything to do with your ISP**. It could be the servers, like everyone is saying. Even though the game is P2P, it still needs the server as a conduit. Just like a PS3 game might be P2P, but PSN still needs to be up to work. Also, it could be the backbone throttling P2P traffic between your ISP and the servers, and your friend's ISP is working on another backbone. I have seen that alot, and besides changing ISP, there isn't a whole lot you can do. And even then it might still not help, because it could be about where you live and a common peer used by all providers in that area, and you friend happens to live close to a different peering backbone. So yea..it's all very complicated. Hope my info helps a bit.
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Well my Speed tests on average show something like this:
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/585/55067799.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/64/55067799.jpg/)
Out of like 6 tests, one gave really bad performance, but the rest looked like the picture.
For Quality I got results like this:
(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8248/32229361.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/32229361.jpg/)
Some runs gave 0 problems, but most looked like that.
Seems like all the tests say I have TCP issues...which I really wouldn't know how to go about fixing that. These tests kinda seem inconsistent too..I dunno. Maybe my router/firewall is interfering with them.
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Hmm. Yea, the TCP forced idle and max pause are a concern. I would point to PC issues too at first but according to what you said before:
1. It happened on your old PC and new PC.
2. It's happening with other games.
This says to me it isn't JUST the game, and it isn't JUST your PC. And it probably isn't JUST your ISP. It's probably a mixture of all three. Lets focus on the ISP, since we know for sure you have some high TX and low US SNR. Sounds like maybe the FEC on the node is high so your getting alot of uncorrectables. That would match some of your results. But TCP should make up for that. But if that is the case..I don't really have too much I can suggest. First lets focus on isolating the issue.
1. If possible, try with your computer, another persons connection, same ISP. See if better/worse/same.
2. If possible, try with you computer, another persons connection, different ISP. See if better/worse/same.
3. Try to get in touch with one of the mods for your ISP on Broadbandreports. Alot of times they are at the engineer level and can see things normal tier 1, or even tier 2 can't (or won't) see. They might be able to track the a issue in your node, if it exist. And MAYBE put in a ticket to get it fixed. I say maybe, because I fear it could be over congestion. And if that is the case, short of doing a node split, your SOL. And they don't do those often since the process takes 40-60k a pop. Lets not hope it's that though. Let me know how it goes.
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Also, before I forget, there are ways to send TCP(and the UDP traffic your game is probably transmitting) traffic instead of ICMP, but it requires a specail driver that align with your NIC driver. You can use it in conjunction with clients like Pingplotter, or standalone via a command line. At work, we have access to a linux server that has tools including one based on the netcat script, but it's IP whitelisted, so I can't access it from home otherwise I would give you the link.
Instead, you can do a simple tracert.
Start > Run > CMD > Tracert [insert domain]
Even if the final hop doesn't respond to ICMP, chances are, the servers leading up to them do, and they could show you the cause of the problem.
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Well I made a thread in the Comcast Direct section of the BBR forums so hopefully someone at Comcast will reply.
For the game server IPs, I found them the other day using the "internet sessions" section on my router. I noticed when connecting to the game, its usually the same IP with TCP ports ranging from 50000 - 50010 (one time the last bit in the address was 1 number lower though..). Anyway, this remains constant no matter what you do in the game. However, upon starting a PvP match, it sends out 3 UDP packets to the same IP but higher ports (something like 50200-50300 iirc).
Anyway the game server is down right so I can't connect to get the IP's again...however I ran a tracert the other day and it was ugly.
It went something like:
1. ** ** ** ** **
2. ip x.x.x.x
3. ** ** ** ** *
4. ** ** ** ** *
5. ip x.x.x.x
6. ** ** ** ** *
7. ip x.x.x.x
8. ** *** *** **
etc.
It took a really long time to display each hop, and I'm guessing the ******** lines meant it timed out or something? I will try to update with the actual log when the servers come back online.
Ugh, I really wish I could talk my family into switching over to Verizon FiOS. They have a 35/35 plan for the same price as the 20/4 plan I'm on with Comcast...and both of my friends in my area who have it never get any issues :( The only downside is you are forced to use their own hybrid modem/router >.>
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Yea, that is a downside. Actiontec...bleh. And sometimes depending on the type of cable you get, you can't totally bypass it.
I would give Comcast a little more time. If you get no luck with Broadbandreports.com, maybe try emailing their support line, and see if you can get your concerned transferred to a engineer? Once you reach that level, your talking to someone who can really see the problem, and get things moving. And once you find that right support give, keep him/her in your pocket and treat them like gold. :-)
Also, another route you can go, is usually most ISP will have guidelines that after so many trouble calls in a given time, you will be eligible for a technical lead or supervisor to investigate the issue. Maybe ask to talk with their quality department?
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Well my thread got completely ignored on the BBR forums. I'm tired of trying, Comcast isn't gonna fix anything for me. Looks like I will just have to quit playing these games until I get a new ISP. Ugh, this sucks. Perhaps I will look into switching to Verizon whenever my contract is up.
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Keep us posted on what goes on. Sorry that CC is not being very helpful. How much is Verizon DSL vs CC Cable? Any other ISPs besides those 2?
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I wouldn't get DSL, I would be getting Verizon fiber optics network. They have a triple play (tv/internet/phone) for cheaper than my comcast triple play, and the Verizon internet in the package is 35mb down/35mb up. My comcast internet in my package is 20mb down/4mb up.
Only problem is I'm not sure how much longer I am stuck with a contract for comcast...and I'd need to convince my family to switch. I'd also have to use their modem (they don't let you use your own) and I think all of their modems have built in routers, which I don't like.
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Ya thats a downside for some ISPs, have to use there HW. Possible that there HW has a DMZ then you could use the 4500 and put it in the DMZ. Just sounds like your in between a rock and a hard place.