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Author Topic: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....  (Read 17296 times)

NKYadav

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Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« on: June 25, 2010, 04:00:03 PM »

OK, so I am having an issue, it seems.  Sorry for the long winded post, but I wanted to get all the info out there so that you have an accurate idea as to 1) what I am doing, 2) why I am doing it, and 3) what steps I have taken to troubleshoot it.

Background

I have a DGL-4500 and a DGL-4300 in very close proximity, and there is a reason for this.  I have read that the 4500 does not play nicely when trying to use both G & N for multiple type of connections (and even experienced it myself, although it was on my originally purchased unit, as opposed to my RMA replacement that I am now using), but I have no choice in the matter, as I have 2 laptops that are N based laptops, and 2 that are G based, as well as my Motorola DROID and a pair of Blackberry's (Storm II and 8600 (?)) as well as an iPhone (yes, we're a diverse group of folks) (all G based).  I wanted to keep N and G separated, so I came up with the (possibly) brilliant idea of using my DGL-4500 to serve as my N provider and my 4300 as the G provider, having the 4500 running at 5.8 GHz so as to minimize the interference.  My home built system uses an eVGA 780i motherboard, with a pair of Gigabit Ethernet ports on it, so I made the 4500 the primary device connecting to my cable modem, and my 4300 a slave of the 4500, on a different subnet. (varying at 3rd and 4th octets, obviously still using 192.168 for the first two octets).

This gives me a lot of flexibility and leeway, in that I can almost instantly look at an IP address and know where it is connected, but more so, I can also easily control access to routers and machines using rules and MAC address filtering, etc.

My problem lies somewhere in this quagmire, but it gets better.  Recently, we converted our home phone system to Vonage, and originally had it set up as Vonage suggested - Cable Modem --> Vonage --> 4500 --> 4300.  That worked - for 2 days, until a corrupted update for the Vonage router took out our entire network, as when it went down, everything behind it did as well.

This Vonage router crapped out 3 different times, before I finally figured out how I can prevent all of this - I changed the order to the following:

Cable Modem --> 4500 --> 4300
_______________  |  _______________
_______________  |  _______________
_______________  V  _______________
____________  Vonage  ____________

I assigned the Vonage device a static IP in the 4500, (as I do with all of my devices, so I know exactly when someone is trying to screw with my network - it pops up IP in a slightly off 4th octet range) and I then made that IP the DMZ.  Now, Vonage is happy, b/c my 4500 is letting it think it is connected directly to the modem, and my network is happy, b/c all subsequent failures on the Vonage device leave my network intact.

The Issue

Recently, I moved from one room to another, and this entailed moving 4 sets of computers around - my old room became my computer room again, my sister's old room became her room again, but the study became my bedroom, and the folks' computer was moved into their room.  Now, in the folks' room, there is no drop, and I don't have enough switches to put in anymore drops.  Since we had a DWA-552 lying around that would work in the desktop, and since the other computer in there laptop with wireless, I figured "Kewl, solution Manifesto."  Wrong - DWA-552 works on 2.4 GHz only.  LOLWTF?

Sigh.  OK, so I converted the 4500 to run at 2.4, no restart seemed to be needed, and *poof* - the DWA 552 can see it plain as day.  Kewl.  However, now I seem to have a new (and potentially threatening) issue.

Since I have one NIC on my mobo connected to the 4500 and the other to the 4300, it makes it easy to troubleshoot both routers (even simultaneously, if need be).  However, the issue is that, recently, my connection speeds have gone to crap.  By crap, I mean that I am paying for Cox.net's premium tier service for residential lines, and in the past, using first the 4300 and then the 4500 I have gotten speeds that easily double what I am advertised as receiving.  They advertise 12-15 Mbps, and I routinely was getting 24-33 Mbps down (upload was ~even with what was advertised).

Now, all of a sudden, I am getting 5 Mbps down and 0.1 (yes, 1/10th of 1) Mbps up.  I have been on the phone with Cox a few times this week, and we have finally resolved it to being the something in between the cable modem and my computer - taking everything out of the mix, I go right back to getting 18-20 Mbps down and 5.5 up, but putting everything back in and I get more of the same crappy results.

So, I disconnected my computer from the 4300, leaving me connected to the 4500 only - and *poof* my connection shot to near advertised specs.  Not the same as I am getting being connected to directly to the modem, but much better than the abysmal effort I get with both connected to my computer.

Conspiracy Theories

This leaves me wondering:

  • Is it because both of my wireless routers are broadcasting in close proximity at 2.4 GHz?
  • Is it because I have the Vonage device in the mix as the DMZ in the 4500?
  • Is it because my 4300 is failing (at one point, around Jan 2009, I could not obtain any IP addresses from the device on wired connection, which is why I purchased the 4500 in the first place - the reason I brought it out of hibernating was that, originally, I though to have only wireless connected to it, but when I saw the wired was working like a champ, I just rolled with it....)

One other idea that occurred to me - if I bought a NetGear GS-108 Gigabit switch into play, immediately behind the router, I could conceivably hook all three devices to the modem, in effect isolating them from each other.  Would that help?

Finally, is there *any* way possible to make the DWA 552 work at 5.8 GHz so I can test whether it is, in fact, wireless frequency interference? (<-- I am 99.44% sure the answer is no, but had to ask - just in case).

I know, so many questions.  Luckily, I have an entire weekend to play and figure this out....
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NKYadav

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2010, 04:08:19 PM »

I should add the following:

  • I realize that Cox is rolling out DOCSIS 3 - could that be a factor in my issues?
  • My 4500's F/W is the 1.22 NA final
  • My 4300's F/W is the 1.9 final

My personal computer is running Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, as is my Wireless N-based laptop, and the other Wireless N based laptop.  The 2 Wireless G-based laptops are running Windows XP SP3 Professional 32bit, and the desktop with the DWA 552 is running Windows 7 Ultimate 32bit.
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LookIntoMyEyees

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2010, 04:14:35 PM »

Awesome well explained. I do know that it has nothing to do with Vonage. I connected my Vonage router directly to my DGL 4500 I did not need to do DMZ you should give it a try also. It could be the 433 is failing. As for both of them broadcasting in close proximity I think that should not affect the performance of wired, it should affect the performance of wireless devices that are connected.

--
Chris
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NKYadav

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2010, 06:33:46 PM »

Yeah, I am not sure what is going on.

I called Cox to verify that I could plug an 8 port switch (NetGear GS-108, with the faulty capacitors replaced by yours truly) directly into the modem and then have each device (Vonage, 4500, & 4300) in parallel, each grabbing an IP address from the modem, as, the way that I understand it is that Cox is supposed to allow up to three IPs per modem.  However, I tried this three times, and only one device would grab an IP - and that was random, whichever happened to poll the switch for a new IP the first, I reckon.  Once it was the 4500, once Vonage, and once the 4300.  The other two devices would not obtain an IP address at all (I think this may be Cox's way of blocking using a switch as the first device....)

So, I got frustrated and connected everything back the way I had it - and lo, and behold! my connection is back up to speed.   ::)

For sh*ts and giggles, I restored the 4300 to factory defaults and then started messing around with trying to provision the routers such that anything connected to one router can see devices on the other router, and vice versa.  So far, all seems to work, but for he advanced setting sI need to make to allow each device on both routers see each other, well, there, I am stuck.

The 4500 is set to obtain an IP address via DHCP, and internally I am using 192.168.X.Y, and the 4300 grabs an IP from the range I have set for the DHCP assignments in the 4500, and internally it is using a totally different subnet, 192.168.A.B.

Do I need to change the subnet mask on the 4300 to 255.255.0.0 so that it ill allow devices to see on (and be seen by) devices on the other router, or do I need to make the subnet for the DCHP assignment on the 4500 to be 255.255.0.0, or do I need to make them both 255.255.0.0?

Or, should I stick with 255.255.255.0 as my subnet, let the 4500 assign my range using 192.168.X.{100-199}, and let the 4300 grab an IP address from the 4500, so it will be 192.168.{100<=R<=199}.S and then assign it a higher range in the same octet, say 192.168.R.200-254?

I'd prefer to keep them on completely different 3rd and 4th octets (like I do now), making troubleshooting easier, but I now have a wireless printer to throw into the mix (it was wired before, but it moved with the parents' desktop, so I can't run it wired...., that both my 4300 clients and the 4500 clients need access to (the printer connects to the 4300)....

I suppose I could just attach the printer via USB, but then it would only be available when hte computer is on, and since it has built-in wired and wireless networking, I might as well make use of it....

This is also for future-proofing, b/c I am eventually setup port forwarding rules for Remote Desktop (since my DROID can do it as well as my laptop, making it tremendously easy for me to remote in as I need to to fix things that break)....  Speaking of which, I suppose that I should set a different external port to trigger and keep the default 3389 as the internal port for each device that I add to allow Remote Desktop clients in to....

Lol, sorry, I realize that I am getting into some advanced stuff here, but I really want to make sure this is all working.  Just graduated with a Computer Science Degree, am about to start working and finish up my Mathematics degree, then it is off to grad school.  And that means that I will not be here much longer, hopefully not even local, and that means having this set up perfectly so that I can maintain the network and machines easily.
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Trikein

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2010, 11:25:09 PM »

Ok, I couldnt read everything, because I am exsausted, but thought I would post a few points. I like the way you think though and really think I can help here.

1. You don't get three static IP with Premiere. You only get three with Ultimate(which I think is only released in a couple markets) and they are still DHCP. So a switch after the modem won't work, since the first device connected to the switch to power up aquires the only IP the modem has to offer. Next device locks. So go back to your orginal Modem > 4500 (With Vonage router either in DMZ, or capped with a set QOS rule) > 4300

2. Why did you change you 4500 to 2.4? Why not just configure the wireless NIC to connect to the 4300 at 2.4? Sure the DWA-552 is N, but its still backwards compatible. Just set it to G only. Your solution of 4300 being G at 2.4 and 4500 being N at 5.8 is sound, stick with it. Look unders the wireless NIC's advanced properties in your Device manager. Probably a way to set it G only. Unless your looking for a 100Mb PC to PC connection, G is fine.

3. Your main desktop has two NIC's right? With the network setup as listed above, considering the fallowing. We will call it NIC-A and NIC-B. If NIC-A is connected to the 4500 and NIC-B is connected to the 4300, and you ONLY disable NIC-B does your performance return to normal? If so, swap the two ethernet (with NIC-B Still disabled). Does it get better or worse. If your performance gets better when you disable NIC-B and then stays the same when you swap the ethernet, you know its a issue with the settings of NIC-B. If it gets better when you disable NIC-B and goes back to bad when you swap, thens its settings in the 4300. If nothing changes when you disable NIC-B, then please clearify issue. Also, do you have the two NIC's bridged?
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Trikein

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2010, 11:44:46 PM »

Oh, by the way, I was going to paste you a link to Vonage's support site showing what ports to forward if you want to take your Vonage router out of DMZ to cap its bandwidth drag, but seems their entire support site is down. Bounces 8 hops across NY, 3 in DC, before hitting a brick wall. Messy messy. And ironic.

Any reason with that much hardware why you just don't go with Skype? Or Ooma?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 11:46:21 PM by Trikein »
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LookIntoMyEyees

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2010, 07:23:45 AM »

Trikein I got Vonage and now that Ooma makes me look like a loser -_-. Trikein do you use Ooma? if so how is it?

--
Chris
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NKYadav

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2010, 10:37:25 AM »

Ok, I couldnt read everything, because I am exsausted, but thought I would post a few points. I like the way you think though and really think I can help here.

1. You don't get three static IP with Premiere. You only get three with Ultimate(which I think is only released in a couple markets) and they are still DHCP. So a switch after the modem won't work, since the first device connected to the switch to power up aquires the only IP the modem has to offer. Next device locks. So go back to your orginal Modem > 4500 (With Vonage router either in DMZ, or capped with a set QOS rule) > 4300

lol figured that out the hard way.  I now realize that I am remembering the Comcast account that I had years ago in Atlanta....

2. Why did you change you 4500 to 2.4? Why not just configure the wireless NIC to connect to the 4300 at 2.4? Sure the DWA-552 is N, but its still backwards compatible. Just set it to G only. Your solution of 4300 being G at 2.4 and 4500 being N at 5.8 is sound, stick with it. Look unders the wireless NIC's advanced properties in your Device manager. Probably a way to set it G only. Unless your looking for a 100Mb PC to PC connection, G is fine.

Well, the G connection is sufficient for the other desktop, and I think I may going back to it - however, with the 4500 at 2.4 not only can that desktop connect to it, but so can my DROID.  Amazingly so, since it is supposed to support only wireless G, but all of a sudden it can see my Wireless N router since I moved it to 2.4.  (I suspect that it has to do with the latest baseband update....I tried connecting my HP C6180 series printer wirelessly to it, that only support Wireless G, and it sees the router, but it is unable to actually garner an IP address, leading me to believe that the 4500 is in fact still only supplying 802.11n, and that my DROID now supports same said 802.11n on the 2.4 GHz band.

TBH, I am thinking about trying to do all in one again, since the 4500 is amazingly strong in terms of resilience (now that all of my hardware issues as well as the firmware issues of the past are gone).  Note, I said *try* - just to see how it all works.

Finally, if I do go back to separating the 4500 on 5.8 and the 4300 on 2.4, you cn bet your bottom dollar I'll be posting the results back in this thread of any and all testing that I do  :D

3. Your main desktop has two NIC's right? With the network setup as listed above, considering the fallowing. We will call it NIC-A and NIC-B. If NIC-A is connected to the 4500 and NIC-B is connected to the 4300, and you ONLY disable NIC-B does your performance return to normal? If so, swap the two ethernet (with NIC-B Still disabled). Does it get better or worse. If your performance gets better when you disable NIC-B and then stays the same when you swap the ethernet, you know its a issue with the settings of NIC-B. If it gets better when you disable NIC-B and goes back to bad when you swap, thens its settings in the 4300. If nothing changes when you disable NIC-B, then please clearify issue. Also, do you have the two NIC's bridged?

Ha!  Thanks for giving my an extra set of brains and hands and eye there.  That is exactly what I need to do and did not do b/c I simply did not think about it.  However...my connections issues are gone, for the moment.

For all I know it might have been a bad cable, b/c I did replace a couple of those as well.  In order to rule out cables, I think now I am going to make all my own cables and replace every single one of the cables I am using now, to help eliminate the possibility that my cables are going bad....

Oh, by the way, I was going to paste you a link to Vonage's support site showing what ports to forward if you want to take your Vonage router out of DMZ to cap its bandwidth drag, but seems their entire support site is down. Bounces 8 hops across NY, 3 in DC, before hitting a brick wall. Messy messy. And ironic.

Any reason with that much hardware why you just don't go with Skype? Or Ooma?

The rental folks wanted Vonage b/c they don't really know about Skype, and Vonage provides an awesome deal to calls made to India (folks are from India, I am born and bred in the good old US of A).

Never even heard of Ooma, gonna check it out now.

Trikein I got Vonage and now that Ooma makes me look like a loser -_-. Trikein do you use Ooma? if so how is it?

--
Chris

Yeah, how is it?
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LookIntoMyEyees

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2010, 10:53:32 AM »

I mean Ooma Does sound and look awesome but what if sound quality is not on par with Vonage? I love vonage quality and sound and it works great with my DGL 4500. Only issues I see with the Ooma is all calls might not be free after all. If you don't use Ooma I will be mad at you because your recomending a product you yourself never even tried -_-. Skype is not a good service if you are mostly home and want to just pick up the phone and call.

--
Chris
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Trikein

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2010, 09:27:51 PM »

I never recommended it. I did some research into Ooma a year ago when looking to buy a gift for my dad. I get all my phone services for free, and when I need a spare line, I use Google Voice.

My friend swears by Skype though. Mostly because he controls every aspect of the hardware with it. Ooma and Vonage, you have to deal with their stuff, which no matter how you feel about their service, Vonage EQ is poo. Least their new stuff. Was good...oddly enough, back when it was D-link. HaHA!

Longer post to fallow
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Trikein

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2010, 09:31:56 PM »

No. put the 4500 at 5.8 N and the 4300 at 2.4 G. Just because a router is "G" doesn't mean a N device can't connect to it. And just because a device is N, doesn't mean it can't connect to a G router. You just cant connect one device to the router at a rate both don't support. Also, you can't make 5.8 run in G.  N at 2.4 is fine though, so is A. Theres so many ways to do this its silly, so I won't go over each, but I still don't see what the hinderance is.

A. Is it that you couldnt get the N wireless NIC to connect to the 4300 at G?
B. Was it too slow?
C. Was it slowing down other devices on the 4300?
D. Was it a range issue between the wireless desktop and the 4300?

Ok, break down, Ho-HAAA-ha. Picture 2.4 being AM, and 5.8 being FM. But imagine the first third of the dial is A, then G, then N. But  FM(5.8) is a shorter band because the waves are pushed together more, so theres less stations. So you can only fit A and N on it.(Not accurate, but go with it). Now both your 4500 is a AM/FM radio, your 4300 is just a AM radio. Your Droid is a AM radio, your wireless desktop is a AM radio. Just because its only AM, doesn't mean it cant be set anywhere on a dial. Granted, it has to be set to do so, but it works fine. Before, you were broadcasting at FM, so no mater how hard your AM radio searched, it just didn't see it. Make more sense?

As for the printer, don't jump to that conclusion. Look at the 802 band and mode under 4500 > Basic > wireless > WIRELESS NETWORK SETTINGS. All the settings are there to configure how ever you want. I think once you really break down both the capabilities of your routers and adapters, you will see you can set up the network with the 4500 doing 5.8 N and the 4300 2.4. This is the best way, so much so that people pay twice as much as a router that can do both at the same time. Your set up is even better, because you have twice as much process power, and can move the two routers to different points in the house/room. Also, you can do seperate rules on each..just opens up so much flexability.

Send me a IM at Trikein if want by the way. Google Chat or AIM (Pidgin FTW)
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LookIntoMyEyees

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2010, 10:26:27 AM »

Thanks Trikein,

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Chris
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NKYadav

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2010, 01:03:41 PM »

No. put the 4500 at 5.8 N and the 4300 at 2.4 G. Just because a router is "G" doesn't mean a N device can't connect to it. And just because a device is N, doesn't mean it can't connect to a G router. You just cant connect one device to the router at a rate both don't support. Also, you can't make 5.8 run in G.  N at 2.4 is fine though, so is A. Theres so many ways to do this its silly, so I won't go over each, but I still don't see what the hinderance is.

A. Is it that you couldnt get the N wireless NIC to connect to the 4300 at G?
B. Was it too slow?
C. Was it slowing down other devices on the 4300?
D. Was it a range issue between the wireless desktop and the 4300?

Ok, break down, Ho-HAAA-ha. Picture 2.4 being AM, and 5.8 being FM. But imagine the first third of the dial is A, then G, then N. But  FM(5.8) is a shorter band because the waves are pushed together more, so theres less stations. So you can only fit A and N on it.(Not accurate, but go with it). Now both your 4500 is a AM/FM radio, your 4300 is just a AM radio. Your Droid is a AM radio, your wireless desktop is a AM radio. Just because its only AM, doesn't mean it cant be set anywhere on a dial. Granted, it has to be set to do so, but it works fine. Before, you were broadcasting at FM, so no mater how hard your AM radio searched, it just didn't see it. Make more sense?

As for the printer, don't jump to that conclusion. Look at the 802 band and mode under 4500 > Basic > wireless > WIRELESS NETWORK SETTINGS. All the settings are there to configure how ever you want. I think once you really break down both the capabilities of your routers and adapters, you will see you can set up the network with the 4500 doing 5.8 N and the 4300 2.4. This is the best way, so much so that people pay twice as much as a router that can do both at the same time. Your set up is even better, because you have twice as much process power, and can move the two routers to different points in the house/room. Also, you can do seperate rules on each..just opens up so much flexability.

Send me a IM at Trikein if want by the way. Google Chat or AIM (Pidgin FTW)

Slow is not the issue here so much so as the ability for all devices to see all other devices regardless of which router they are connected to.  I would happily go back to separating the two routers on different frequencies, keeping the 4500 for N only and the 4300 for G only, but my issue becomes that devices connected to the 4500 are not able to see the devices on the 4300 - And that is where I need the help.

I previously had the subnet on both routers (in terms of the DHCP settings) set to 255.255.0.0, b/c the DHCP range offered by the 4500 was 192.168.A.{range} and the DHCP range offered on the 4300 was 192.168.B.{range} (not, neither is a standard 192.168.1.1 / 192.168.0.1 either - I made up my own IP addresses for these routers that make sense to me but will take a bit of scouring before someone else can find them).  I also did not supply the entire range (1-254) on either router, starting it in the middle somewhere as opposed to having 255 available IP addresses to my network from each device (call me paranoid).

I fully understand the connectivity and that N clients can connect to G routers - been doing it for a while now.  My issue is that I don't understand how to have devices connected to one router see devices connected to the other router.

Finally, I have reasons why I want the N devices on the 4500 - specifically bandwidth - internal network bandwidth.  All the N clients are running Windows 7 and we like to share videos and such throughout our network.  That, and the fact that I am about to set up a new Windows Home Server that I want all my devices to also be able to access....

I'll send you a PM / Google chat invite for talking about this directly.
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NKYadav

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2010, 01:05:40 PM »

Another thing - does D-Link even sell any Desktop adapter that does 5.8 GHz for Wireless N?
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FurryNutz

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Re: Trying to optimize my multiple connection types....
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2010, 01:30:37 PM »

Doesn't look like anything in the 5Ghz band. Not finding anything for DLink or other Mfrs. Hmm, interesting.
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