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Author Topic: Wireless dropping Issues  (Read 62471 times)

FurryNutz

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2012, 02:07:04 PM »

Sorry you had some issues with your routers man. After all that, I might guess that you have some external interferences that might be causing your problems your seeing however with out knowing a bit more from you thats only a guess. I have had 3 4500s, sold one, have a DIR-825, DIR-657 and now working with a DIR-655 and ALL have performed very well for me.

There are some troubleshooting steps in finding some of the problems that arise to router conditions. We've notice over the past year or 2 that being in a hight populated area such as a apartment complex or city or neighborhoods that more and more people are getting more wifi routers, thus this is using up all the channels 1-11 on 2.4Ghz and being either close or not too far away is impacting how these routers work and all get along in the same area. I call it WiFi Congestion. I have only a couple near by me so channels are pretty open. Other considerations is ISP service, lines from the telephone pole or box to the house or building. What condition are they in? I have seen many that the ISP lines are not in good condition which leads to bad or low signals going to the ISP modem. From there, if cable ISP, tv line splitters can impact the signal as well and lower it going to the modem. It's always the standard thinking that it's the routers fault when something happens. After doing a bit more troubleshooting, other issues probably can be found and would help fix or resolve issues elsewhere that are not router related. Other issues can be ISP modems. Having built in routers in modems is having a configuration problem here and there. WE can get past most of them.

I'm not going to say that routers are not completely at fault and I presume that some are defective. However I've been told by DLink that most problems seen are 90-98% end user configuration or external environment related. Working with people here in the forums over the years seems to prove most of that. Seen a lot of issues get resolved with a bit of troubleshooting and help.

I would recommend that you let us help you out and see if your problems with these routers are in fact HW related or the problems lie elsewhere. If not then you'll need to find a different solution elsewhere.

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JeffC71

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2012, 05:01:41 PM »

Quote
I'm not going to say that routers are not completely at fault and I presume that some are defective. However I've been told by DLink that most problems seen are 90-98% end user configuration or external environment related.

From personal experience with D-Link I find that hard to believe.

In the case of my original DGL-4500 it is clearly a hardware issue. The router will randomly do a hard reboot or power cycles down if you prefer. It started doing it about 3 weeks after I purchased it. What bothers me most about this one is that it took 9 months to finally get a tech at D-Link willing to RMA it. Seems D-Link only allows so many RMAs a day as at one point I had a tech tell me point blank "the unit sounds defective but we can't RMA DGL-4500s today".

Then I finally got a RMA approved last month and they wanted to charge me $250 that would be refunded 7 to 10 days after they received the defective unit. I got a CS II manager to waive that fee. But then the replacement unit showed up absolutely filthy and would not broadcast the SSID so I got that one RMAed and it's replacement also would not broadcast.

I was on the phone with D-Link tech support for almost 2 hours troubleshooting the second unit before they agreed to RMA it. I do not believe that the problem with either of the replacement units was due to interference. I tested both units sitting right next to them with 3 different wireless devices. I also tried multiple configurations with both units including running through all the channels. No matter what I did non of the 3 wireless devices could find the SSID. But as soon as I hooked up my original DGL-4500 they picked up the SSID no problem.

Where the DGL-4500 is EOL the CS II manager agreed to switch it for another model. Van (the CS II manager) has really been doing all he can to make this right. But it still don't change the fact that I will most likely never purchase anther D-Link product again.
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FurryNutz

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2012, 07:21:48 PM »

And thats your choice. Were here to help each other and help people with there problems and to gain a better experience for those who ask for help. Most people here get a the help they need and continue to enjoy there routers. Of course, some can't be helped.

Good luck in your endeavors.
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Martin Blank

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2012, 10:41:15 AM »

Maybe it is just me but if your unit works in straight .11g but not in .11n then that says to me it is the unit. If you have to turn off QoS to get your router to work then you are not getting the use of features you paid for.
The feature I paid for was the IPv6 stack, the best available in the consumer market for those whose ISPs don't provide IPv6 connectivity themselves.  The overwhelming majority of my network use is wired, so while I do need WiFi, high-speed wireless is merely a convenience.

I'm in the midst of some long-term troubleshooting, collecting captures of all wireless traffic to try to determine under what circumstances the router ceases responding to other devices.  It may take a day, it may take a week, but in any case, it may provide useful data.

Incidentally, Furry, there are a total of eight other local WiFi networks within the same frequency band.  That's not enough to provide congestion issues.  The router works fine with them on .11g, not on .11n, even locked to 20MHz bandwidth.  It's not interference.
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FurryNutz

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2012, 12:42:33 PM »

I understand that having only 8 other WiFi routers around YOU, doesn't consitute congestion, however I could be for others. Distance can play a factor as well. Many factors play a role in how these WiFi routers work. I just offer up some ideas and suggestions to what might be happening and these are only to try to help trouble shoot the problem. If the troubleshooting process has been exhausted then I do recommend contacting D-Link for support and RMA options.

If you care to give us more details here regarding your problem then we can better help you in troubleshooting. Not everyone has the same setup, networking and external environmental conditions.

Help us help you.
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FurryNutz

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2012, 01:04:00 PM »

Also curious about .Toast's problem, any status on this?  ???
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swetoast

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2012, 01:11:19 PM »

No change here still suffering from dropping issues havent had time to contact dlink about RMA since ive been working alot gonna do that when i get a chance cause lets face it a router should be able to handle more then 3 devices without issues
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FurryNutz

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2012, 01:12:54 PM »

I agree. It's possible this router is faulty. I would contact D-Link and check on RMA options. Please keep us posted.
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Martin Blank

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2012, 12:05:26 PM »

If you care to give us more details here regarding your problem then we can better help you in troubleshooting. Not everyone has the same setup, networking and external environmental conditions.

Help us help you.
My details haven't changed except that I upgraded to the 1.01 firmware.  No one setting--except disabling .11n--allows wireless to function on an uninterrupted basis, nor does any combination of setting produce any sort of different result.  And frankly, I'm only documenting my findings here as a possible assistance to others as I expect that my own training and experience is further along than most people here.  This isn't just flailing about for me.  I have processes that I follow, too, but they're based on working in an enterprise environment more complex than most and they include a fair-sized WLAN covering a few hundred thousand square feet over three buildings in two locations.  I do have an idea of what I'm talking about.

True claims of interference apply only in limited circumstances related to the public spectrum such as ill-fitting microwave doors or older 2.4GHz cordless phones and baby monitors, but you can't find those without special gear.  The level of activity required for routers to interfere with each other in such a way as to completely prevent all activity is so incredibly high that it is unlikely to happen outside of a constructed environment and would show up immediately in a traffic capture.  The people that write the standards factor in dense environments.  Degraded performance due to congestion, yes, that can happen more easily, especially in the 2.4GHz range, but there will be patterns to it correlating with local network activity and thus varying over time (unless you have an active attacker).  Those are more easily addressed by channel changes or perhaps settings adjustments.

But the problem that's been most often described in this thread is a cessation of all activity.  I've been capturing all of the traffic for the past 27 hours and counting, about 6.5GB in total so far.  I started it when my router stopped responding.  I could see only beacon frames at the time save for my various devices--my Roku, my TouchPad, and two cell phones--trying to authenticate.  They sent out probes and access requests, but never received a single frame in way of reply.  I rebooted the router, still capturing traffic, and watched as my devices connected.  It's happily chugging away now with three cell phones, the TouchPad, the Roku, and a notebook other than the one capturing traffic.  Could it be one of them sending a mangled frame?  Perhaps.  But if that's the case, then it's the router's fault for not properly handling it, something it should be able to do because collisions, reflections, refractions, and sometimes plain old broken software produce mangled frames all the time.

Sure, I could call it in, maybe get an RMA.  But what happens if it happens again?  I'm in the same boat.  I'd rather try to find something specific in the traffic and provide that to DLink in hopes of getting it fixed for everyone else with the problem than flail about trying random things.  I realize that the path I'm taking isn't something that everyone can do, but that's why I'm doing it.  Should this fall short, I've another path that I can take, but it's time consuming and kind of a pain to set up as I have to dig out some gear and set up a bunch of virtual cards.  But I will do it when I have an idea of the parameters involved, and I'll share what I find should no matter the path or outcome.
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swetoast

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2012, 12:13:55 PM »

Please do Martin keep us updated now its starting to get interesting rather then the quick answers thats been given in this thread so far, with the almost same conditions as i have you should face the same problems ive been dealing with, so whatever you find, post :)
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FurryNutz

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2012, 01:43:02 PM »

Maybe someone can review your router settings with you using teamviewer.

My details haven't changed except that I upgraded to the 1.01 firmware.  No one setting--except disabling .11n--allows wireless to function on an uninterrupted basis, nor does any combination of setting produce any sort of different result.  And frankly, I'm only documenting my findings here as a possible assistance to others as I expect that my own training and experience is further along than most people here.  This isn't just flailing about for me.  I have processes that I follow, too, but they're based on working in an enterprise environment more complex than most and they include a fair-sized WLAN covering a few hundred thousand square feet over three buildings in two locations.  I do have an idea of what I'm talking about.

True claims of interference apply only in limited circumstances related to the public spectrum such as ill-fitting microwave doors or older 2.4GHz cordless phones and baby monitors, but you can't find those without special gear.  The level of activity required for routers to interfere with each other in such a way as to completely prevent all activity is so incredibly high that it is unlikely to happen outside of a constructed environment and would show up immediately in a traffic capture.  The people that write the standards factor in dense environments.  Degraded performance due to congestion, yes, that can happen more easily, especially in the 2.4GHz range, but there will be patterns to it correlating with local network activity and thus varying over time (unless you have an active attacker).  Those are more easily addressed by channel changes or perhaps settings adjustments.

But the problem that's been most often described in this thread is a cessation of all activity.  I've been capturing all of the traffic for the past 27 hours and counting, about 6.5GB in total so far.  I started it when my router stopped responding.  I could see only beacon frames at the time save for my various devices--my Roku, my TouchPad, and two cell phones--trying to authenticate.  They sent out probes and access requests, but never received a single frame in way of reply.  I rebooted the router, still capturing traffic, and watched as my devices connected.  It's happily chugging away now with three cell phones, the TouchPad, the Roku, and a notebook other than the one capturing traffic.  Could it be one of them sending a mangled frame?  Perhaps.  But if that's the case, then it's the router's fault for not properly handling it, something it should be able to do because collisions, reflections, refractions, and sometimes plain old broken software produce mangled frames all the time.

Sure, I could call it in, maybe get an RMA.  But what happens if it happens again?  I'm in the same boat.  I'd rather try to find something specific in the traffic and provide that to DLink in hopes of getting it fixed for everyone else with the problem than flail about trying random things.  I realize that the path I'm taking isn't something that everyone can do, but that's why I'm doing it.  Should this fall short, I've another path that I can take, but it's time consuming and kind of a pain to set up as I have to dig out some gear and set up a bunch of virtual cards.  But I will do it when I have an idea of the parameters involved, and I'll share what I find should no matter the path or outcome.
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Martin Blank

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2012, 07:15:57 PM »

No one is viewing my settings via Teamviewer.  I'm not trying to be difficult, but you need to acknowledge that whatever is going on here is not just a simple setting issue.  I dissect network traffic as part of my job, and that includes doing detailed analyses of WLAN traffic down to the wireless frame.  I've got seven years in network security, double that in IT in general, and I teach a class that involves protocol analysis and understanding complex environments.  I do protocol analysis from Layers 2 through 7 on a routine basis and have probably dealt with trickier situations than almost anyone here, so instead of offering to help me, let me try to help.

Now, with that out of the way...

It took 23.2GB of traffic captures to knowingly capture an issue, but I have.  I don't know exactly what the cause is yet, but I'm seeing some very odd things that include:
  • Silence on the part of the router followed by a flood of probe responses for probe requests that I can't find
  • Authentication requests that were acknowledged by the router's radio hardware; I can identify it by the signal strength of -26dBm, consistent with the strength of the beacon frames from the router sitting about eight inches from the wireless NIC in monitor mode.  But the router's software doesn't respond to them, at least not in any meaningful timeframe.  (Wireless operates in the microsecond range, so not seeing responses at least in the next few seconds is bad.)
  • Return to normal operations after a minute or so, which itself is unusual as the router usually needs to be rebooted to get normal ops back.
This looks to me like something in the router's software such as a driver or a service is either hanging or crashing.  It may in some cases recover and in other cases not, which also means that those of us affected by this may be having problems that we don't recognize because we don't see it or because it resolves itself before we can declare it a router issue.

I went looking for logs since I now had an exact time of the problem.  Unfortunately, since I rebooted the router, logs prior to reboot were no longer available.  But there is a debug option in the log configuration (Stats | Logs | Log Options) which was unchecked.  I checked that and rebooted and am now seeing some information (use of udhcpd, PID files stored in /var/run, etc.) suggesting that Linux is the underlying OS which puts me on even more familiar ground.  I just wish there was a shell to which I could gain access.  Well, that's what nmap is for...
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FurryNutz

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2012, 07:35:54 PM »

We are here to help each other out. I and others are here on our own accord and motivated to offer help to those willing to take the time and allow us to try and help them. We do all we can to help everyone out. However, we do understand that we can lead you and not make you do anything. That said, you seem to be supposedly experienced enough to trouble shoot these issues that your seeing and should be able to figure out the problem. If you say that you do this kind of "analysis" then you would realize that there are other factors that effect how these home routers work. So some settings on these routers can call effect how they work. I have 2 of these model routers and tested them both. You do understand that these are low end class routers don't you. These are not higher end business class routers. These are ment for general purpose and home user use.

Not trying to be difficult either, however these forums are for people who are looking for help in solving there issues and willing to let others help them. What we are here for.

Yes there maybe FW or HW issues, however some of those can not be addressed here. They need to be addressed directly with D-Link themselves. You need to contact your local DLink support office and have them help you with your router and tell them of your concerns. DLink is aware of what goes on with there products.

Gook luck.
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Martin Blank

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2012, 07:51:28 PM »

If I take them up solely with DLink and never post here, those who come here for help may not get any solutions or learn the possible problems.

I am aware that it's a home router and not the same as the $25,000 controllers I use at work.  That doesn't excuse random functionality drops, and I'm loathe to simply RMA something without having an idea of the actual issue.  Your testing of the two devices may not have shown anything, but you also might not have run enough traffic through them.  I had to run mine for five days of reasonably high traffic to trigger a problem.

I'm continuing my analysis and will post in the next few days and also contact DLink about it, and will update with that information as well.

.Toast, if you enable debug-level logging and run into the problem, could you perhaps post the log or maybe send it to me via PM if you're not sure about public posting?
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FurryNutz

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Re: Wireless dropping Issues
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2012, 08:15:33 PM »

I do understand that posting information here is appreciated however and does benefit all, however keep in mind the level of information and level of some users here. Most of the information and help here is related to immediate problem solving if possible. Then it becomes historical knowledge from then on.

Regarding immediate problem solving, sometimes it does help out to let others help you out with router settings. Like a 2nd opinion. We've helped many out to resolve problems.

Again, not wishing to be "difficult" in any regards here. Like I said before, we're here to help each other out as much as possible and we do appreciate any good and quality information posted. We also appreciate it when users accept help and allow us to help them out.  :D

Regards.
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